What are CSM good at?

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**Gordon Shumway**

Jancoran, the Legacies of Ruin Yoyoyo is talking about appears in FW's IA13, I believe, so considering your opinion of FW, you might want to look elsewhere. It could really be a fun idea though, I may have to play around with it myself.

**Jancoran**

Ooooooh... yeeeeeah. Probably won't make use of it then. Too bad because it sounded awesome.

On the plus side, it's using the old noodle, which I appreciated.

**Akiasura**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.
This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, either solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

Hmm...interesting list to face.

I'll have to think on it. I'm debating pure CSM, since spamming allies kinda defeats the purpose, but I'm not seeing what CSM could bring to counter that. Really its the Warp spiders and WK that are causing me issues. Nurgle won't matter against them, but it would help with the scat bikes, which are going to be putting down serious firepower.
You don't really need a lot of anti-tank, you can just absorb the one WS.
Transport spam probably isn't a good idea. The bike squads can remove one rhino a turn, and the dragons can kill a heavier tank pretty easily. Not to mention the D-Cannons.

Looking at this I'm leaning towards
1 DP w/ BlackMace (Or AoBF, but nurgle is the better mark) w/Biomancy
1 Belakor
These two are on WraithKnight hunting detail. Hopefully their cover saves can keep them alive, since D-cannons are so dangerous. Flying/invisibility helps.

3 Havoks Autocannons on skyshield landing pad W/MoN or MoT
Provides long range strong firepower. Will be targeting the bikes ASAP.

2 min squad of cultists
Chaos troops are bad, let's just take as few as possible.

3 Squads of bikes, min size w/plasma weapons marked for Nurgle.
Have them hunt the bikes as well, or the spiders.

And maybe some termies for termicide...if I can wipe out the bikes early I'll be in a better spot. Or the spiders, though flickerjump makes that really challenging.
If I could use forgeworld I'd be in a better spot, since I could use drop pods and possibly kill the bikes before they do a lot of damage.

**KhorneontheCobb**

I feel like you would want a Heldrake or 2 to clear out those bikes... Or at the very least, the Burning Brand of Skalathrax on a mobile character.

**Konrax**

I would certainly take 2 drakes for that, 5 nurgle spawn and an ml3 unmarked Sorc with the brand and bike to go with the spawn.

And then 9 Oblitorators?

9 las canons turn 1 could possibly bring down a knight right off the bat.

Maybe another unmarked ml3 Sorc for buffs.

100 pt cultist tax.

**KhorneontheCobb**

Konrax wrote:
I would certainly take 2 drakes for that, 5 nurgle spawn and an ml3 unmarked Sorc with the brand and bike to go with the spawn.

And then 9 Oblitorators?

9 las canons turn 1 could possibly bring down a knight right off the bat.

Maybe another unmarked ml3 Sorc for buffs.

100 pt cultist tax.

I would do something very similar to this... I might take a MoT Sorc on Disc though. MoN sorcerer w/ sigil and bike is T6 3+4++. MoT sorcerer with sigil and disc is T5 3+ 3++, but with added mobility and +1 attack. Your escort suffers though, the spawn lose 1T and I don't think the MoT for 6++ is worth it on the spawn. I think it's a toss up.

**Akiasura**

9 oblits is only 6 hits, then 4 wounds. After saves it's probably less than 3 wounds, it won't kill the wraith knight in one turn. Most likely it will take 3 since they can't fire the same weapon every turn.

The 3 havocs get 24 shots, 16 hits, 5 wounds, probably a little less than the oblits after saves, but cost a lot less and can do it every turn rather than every other. You could do lascannons or Mls but that ups the cost. If auto cannons were just one more shot..

For knights I think you really need to get them with a dp in close combat. I don't see how else you can kill 1 before turn 3 let alone 2.

Burning brand is good, if I take multiple focs. You really want dps to bring down the Knights. Maybe a csm flying circus?

Heldrakes would be a good idea. 2 of them would be good to clear out the bikes and possibly the seers as well.

**Intercessor**

There's a detachment called 'The Purge' unmarked or nurgle only, that probably stands a far better chance than a standard CAD against that eldar list. The only downside is no fast attack slots.

**Yoyoyo**

Wow there is no compulsory troop choice. 4x Elites and 4x HS.

There is potential there.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Wow there is no compulsory troop choice. 4x Elites and 4x HS.

There is potential there.

It's literally the only way I can get them to compete.

Take a MoN Warpsmith, Huron or Arkos, throw them in a unit of Obliterators, and take three laser Vindicators, Sicarans, or Fire Raptors. Plague Marines then become your compulsory "troops" without the MoN Lord tax. Throw in three of those squads with Plasma Guns, and season to taste with whatever.

It is one of the better things I've done.

**Filch**

Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

**Gordon Shumway**

Filch wrote:
Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

That's why he put troops in quotes, he is using them as elites. He doesn't need a troops choice with the formation.

**Jancoran**

dun dun duuuuuuuun

**Slayer-Fan123**

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Filch wrote:
Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

That's why he put troops in quotes, he is using them as elites. He doesn't need a troops choice with the formation.

Bingo.

**purplkrush**

Jancoran wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
fallinq wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

Precisely. THAt should have really been the way to discuss it. Not polar craziness.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...
Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Hmm... That's incredibly interesting. So like you could mark the Chosen or something with Khorne and throw Sorcerers in there with that? Gosh with Khorne Dogs, that would just be too cool for school. Again, not a Night Lords list, but a viable way to make those hounds scary as hell? Fun. Real fun.

So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

You're not playing a Night Lords list... this isn't going to change anything.

**Gordon Shumway**

Jancoran wrote:
dun dun duuuuuuuun

I don't get your response. Was it a statement about how obvious it was? Not really sure

.

I still don't see what you hate about FW, it allows chaos to have some fun interesting builds that are much more competitive in the current meta (you are all about playing with lists to see what works in an unconventional way, aren't you?), the models are some of the best looking on the market right now (and let's be honest, if people are still playing chaos, at least some of their interest has to be on the modeling side of things-best army for modeling hands down), isn't really any more expensive than regular GW stuff at this point, and is no more overpowered than GW's mainline armies.

Come to the dark side.

**welshhoppo**

Once you go forge, you never go back.

**War Kitten**

Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

**welshhoppo**

War Kitten wrote:
Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

* with 12% shipping fee.

Seriously GW, at least ship free to store......

**Experiment 626**

welshhoppo wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

* with 12% shipping fee.

Seriously GW, at least ship free to store......

And Canada gets an extra special shipping tax!

Damn how I wish the GW stores would go back to selling the FW books...

**Jancoran**

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
dun dun duuuuuuuun

I don't get your response. Was it a statement about how obvious it was? Not really sure .

I still don't see what you hate about FW, it allows chaos to have some fun interesting builds that are much more competitive in the current meta (you are all about playing with lists to see what works in an unconventional way, aren't you?), the models are some of the best looking on the market right now (and let's be honest, if people are still playing chaos, at least some of their interest has to be on the modeling side of things-best army for modeling hands down), isn't really any more expensive than regular GW stuff at this point, and is no more overpowered than GW's mainline armies.

Come to the dark side.

My dislike of Forge World isn't worth another thread on it. I dont consider Forge World "unconventional". thwere are other words i would use, but that's not really one of them. They are less often seen of course but that's as much a financial issue as it is anything else.

So i won't be coming to the darkside, but I always appreciate the invites.

**whembly**

Jancoran wrote:

My dislike of Forge World isn't worth another thread on it. I dont consider Forge World "unconventional". thwere are other words i would use, but that's not really one of them. They are less often seen of course but that's as much a financial issue as it is anything else.

So i won't be coming to the darkside, but I always appreciate the invites.

You sure you won't be tempted?

I've been wracking my brains to see if we can build a mechanized CSM army that'll give the powerlist a run for the money.

So, I stole your mutilator idea... but, when hogwild with Forgeworld unit.

Try this!

1847 Pts - Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster

: The Purge Detachment
1 Warpsmith (Warlord)

1 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle
1 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle

1 Chaos Relic Sicaran Battle Tank
1 Chaos Relic Sicaran Battle Tank
1 Chaos Fire Raptor Gunship, TL Avenger Bolt Cannon; Reaper Autocannon Battery; Balefire Incendiary Missiles (x4)
1 Chaos Typhon Heavy Siege, Tank Armoured Ceramite
1 The Purge Detachment (Pledged to Nurgle; Slaves to Darkness; Forbidden Munitions; Salt the Earth)

: Combined Arms Detachment
1 Sorcerer

9 Chaos Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion
9 Chaos Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion

1 Baledrake
1 Baledrake

1 Maulerfiend
1 Maulerfiend
1 Combined Arms Detachment

It's got your backline distraction in your Mutilators...

Maulerfiends rush up...

Sicarian/Typhon/Raptor unloads

Baleflamers burinates to taste.

Hmmmm... I might have to crack open the piggy bank for the Typhon (I have the other models)

**Jancoran**

Lol. Sounds like basically

Step 1: "take all the good units and dump them on field.
Step 2: play!
Step 3: Profit!

Lol.

But sriously the list saturates the enemy pretty well, guards them on the approach a bit and generally is unpleasnat when it goes off.

The cultists show up later and winn the game for you.

So yeah... Looks like fun. It might take a little tweaking for style. One thing i have to ask as i am just not a Forge World guy: Do those vehicles come with a ram or a Dozer blade type feature? pardon my ignorance but i am not an expert on Forge World units. I have the general gist of a lot of them and some of them more specifically but overall... Just too turned off to try and keep up.

So can they handle terrain? One of the reasons I took my Land Raider out wasnt because it wasnt a good idea. It was how big a deal terrain was. Even with a Dozer, i managed to cost myself in a couple key places. without one? ugh. I ultimately had to ay no to my Land Raider because it just was such a risk sometimes. Anything you abslutely cannot afford to immobilize can be bad policy.

**whembly**

Jancoran wrote:

So can they handle terrain?

I'm guessing you're referring to the Sicarians and Typhon?

Both tends not to move that much as they're not transport vehicles. Just strategically deploy them and fire away.

The Typhon is a Super-heavy... so, I can't exactly remember if it's immune to dangerous terrains or not... (pretty sure super-heavy walkers are).

The Sicarians has the range to stay back... but, I do believe it comes with reinforce ram or some variant. Also... the nice thing about the Sicarians is that it's an AV13 fast vehicle. So, it can scoot if you need to...

I'm still pondering this list, lol...

I guess I need to finally assembly my sicarians and fire raptor.

**Konrax**

That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

**autumnlotus**

Konrax wrote:
That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

It's actually not that amazing in a competitive environment, given that most strong armies have anti-armor that can just ruin them. Drop pod melta would hurt them minus the Typhon..unless the others have armored ceremite? In basic/casual settings it would be a bit more annoying, but that's mainly because mech heavy armies are less common there

**whembly**

autumnlotus wrote:
Konrax wrote:
That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

It's actually not that amazing in a competitive environment, given that most strong armies have anti-armor that can just ruin them. Drop pod melta would hurt them minus the Typhon..unless the others have armored ceremite? In basic/casual settings it would be a bit more annoying, but that's mainly because mech heavy armies are less common there

I wouldn't call it amaze-balls...

But, against the new Tau, Eldar and Centstar/Demi-Company SM... it'll do just fine imo.

I just need to test it out.

You can buy armored ceremite for the Sicarians, but I didn't for that list. *shrugs*

I may just drop a Baledrake for a Termicide/Spawn unit+more upgrades...

**Experiment 626**

Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

**Jancoran**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

I'm taking my Chaos Marines out today. So i dunno what the gloom is about. 70% of this thread was spawned by me going undefeated a cuple weekends ago.

So there's that.

So no I don't think it's necesary at all to leave them at home to win. As aforementioned.

**Selym**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

It's really annoying. But, as we all know, the bad guys must never win. Unless they copy the good guy's super tech, and leave all their personality at home.