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 Talys wrote:


Anyways. My point is only that I don't think that a bunch of ads anywhere will make a huge difference to the hobby at large. Most people who are interested in miniatures hobbies know where the very small number of stores are and seek out any stores that are within travelling range, and quickly become familiar with what they can buy locally. Then, it's not a huge leap for them to figure out what's available online. In a way, it's not much different from model trains. I have friends who are into that kind too, and it's just something you have an interest in and then hunt down, and either grow a passion for or abandon.

I find this part "Most people who are interested in miniatures hobbies know where the very small number of stores are and seek out any stores that are within travelling range" quite baffling. How could somebody know of miniature hobbies if they are not exposed to them in any way. Sure people who already know of all of this don't need ads but they should be aimed at other people who have no exposure to their games. This is a new product, you have to somehow announce and expose it to people. If I write the best novel ever I don't sell it by letting visitors look at it once in a while. I get it to a publisher or at least go the DIY self-publishing route. Do something and not just lean back in my rocking chair and declare it finished.

I got introduced to basic scale model stuff through a regular toy store when I was little, Heroquest and Star Quest (aka Space Crusade) through a friend (and advertisement) in first/third grade or something like that, and Warhammer through another friend who got an english WD when he was in England (at that time there was neither a German GW branch nor WD or rules). Without one or two lucky coincidences and advertisement I would have never know that all of this existed (and stopped with Heroquest). A lot of people were also introduced to all of this through the LotR bubble (and the non WD magazine that was produced at the time and had a listing of GW stores inside plus some free stuff) or the Dawn of War video games.

Even if we assume they wanted to get rid of all the grumpy veterans and replace them with completely new customers for AoS how would this random somebody know about "the hobby" if they don't advertise it? Nobody just wakes up one day thinking they need this hobby in their life. They don't know anything about this and they don't magically find the nearest store (google for "I want to glue stuff together, paint it, … and then play?"). Every time some outside product gets into contact with GW they get some exposure that benefits them but for some reason advertisement or marketing are anathema to GW. Introducing new customers shouldn't be left to some random process that is about as reliable as a conversion field generator if they are a $100/150 million revenue company. Especially if they relied on veterans (to some degree) to expand their customer base but then pushed a chunk of them away with AoS.

Focusing a lot of AoS while their main game has a little break/slowdown of releases and completely stopping production of the other game that at least gave them 10 to 20% of their revenue just seems kinda naive in my opinion. Like they rolled a D6 in real life because they didn't know how to solve that rules (or in this case financial) problem.

I find this part "Most people who are interested in miniatures hobbies know where the very small number of stores are and seek out any stores that are within travelling range" quite baffling. How could somebody know of miniature hobbies if they are not exposed to them in any way.

Again I can only talk about how the UK appears to work to me.

You won't find ads for almost any miniature game, outside of stuff that would require that you already know about that sort of stuff anyway. Games workshop stores are in all major towns, in fairly decent locations. It is somewhat hard to go through high school without being exposed to it some way via your peers. The sort of kids who might be into that sort of thing will probably be into other related stuff and come across it via those channels as well. Games workshop or Warhammer are just one of those things you come across growing up in the UK. Maybe it is because it is a UK company and has been here for 40 years, and is about the only place you can get those sort of models outside a handful of other shops spread across the country. If a random kid asked his dad about it there is a decent chance that his dad will have also heard of warhammer/GW even if he has never looked at it. It even appeared for many years that GW were the place parents left their kids whilst they went shopping.

Add in the computer games and you have further likely hood that teens are going to see something about GW, and if they like the computer games there is at least a good chance they will know who GW are and know where a store is if they live in any large town or bigger.

Will that change, well everything does over time, and maybe that will no longer hold true going forward, but for a long time GW appears to have just been part of growing up in the UK. Advertising may well help, but just as you need to overcome inertia to start with, once you have got going inertia can keep you going along for a while and that may be whats happens here.

@Puree, Mario -

In my area, it's not that different from yours, puree, except that there aren't GW stores everywhere There is one nice GW store that used to be in a major shopping center, and has since moved to across the road from another big shopping center -- but it's not in a location that would get a ton of traffic. There are hobby shops scattered throughout the metropolitan areas, but throughout the years, many have closed up shop.

Within the hobby realm, you have the shops that have gaming (PP, GW, Malifaux, XWing, etc), and then some that just have scale models, or not enough gaming to be worth mentioning.

It's pretty hard to grow up having *no* exposure to miniature wargames; that is, to not know that they exist; and at some point in one's childhood, there is a high likelihood of entering an hobby shops. Like I said, it's no different than model trains: it's nearly impossible to grow up not having *some* exposure to them, and if you marvel at them in wonderment and wish to build one yourself, you'll go and do the research to find out where to buy not only the trains, but all the paraphernalia that goes with it. There's no need for Woodland Scenics to advertise to you, because when you inevitably show up at the store, you'll see a wall of their stuff.

I'm sure there are people who are exposed to miniatures and gaming in different ways (like friends and word of mouth), but at the end of the day, here, it's just like in the UK - there is no mass advertisement for any miniature wargame that I can recall in memory, except in places where only people who are already wargamers and hobbyists would look anyways. I'm not sure if it would be effective in the mass media (where it's very expensive), because such a tiny percentage of the population is interested in it; to put it into perspective, Halo 5 -- a single $50 title -- will make more profit than all the miniature wargaming companies added up for the 5 year.

I only got into miniatures because my father was into model trains and the Rider's Hobby Shop he would get his stuff from carried most of the minis lines that were out in the early 90's, and they caught my eye one day when I was about 12, back in the heady days of 40k 2nd edition, and Mutant Chronicles. N3cromunda came out when I 2as in 7th grade.

None of my friends painted or played minis games other than if they were using my models and I was the only kid I know of all throughout all my years at school that did, either.

Those weren't the days of the internet, with easy accessible knowledge. I don't know how else I would have gotten into gaming, or if I stumbled across it despite my dad, how many years later that would have been.

@AegisGrimm - I got into the hobby because we had an AD&D play group (this was around Grade 4, and that group lasted for about 7+ years, which is pretty amazing at that age). At that time, I religiously bought every issue of Dragon magazine and White Dwarf. At some point in the late 80s, WD went from being a magazine about D&D supplements with Thrud the Barbarian in the back to being about Citadel models

How did I get into AD&D? I was in the shopping center, and there was a games shop, walked in, saw Gary Gygax stuff and it was love at first sight. Incidentally, I was interested in Ral Partha miniatures long before 40k, but the scale of interest was tiny relative to what it became once I saw Eldar, Space marines and Squats. ZOMG miss squats.

I saw an ad on TV for the LOTR magazine someone put out in partnership with GW. Had I not seen that I'd never have know the hobby exists and would never have been able to seek out any stores.

I bought my first Citadel miniature in 1979. I used it for D&D.

I'm a long time tabletop fantasy wargamer/roleplayer.

With AoS, I lost all interest in everything GW. The rules for 40K have been unbalanced for some time and after they Sigmarred WHFB, I figured it wouldn't be long before they did the same with 40K.

I played WHFB long before I ever got into 40K, too.

With so many choices that are, quite frankly, much less expensive, I see no reason to buy GW products simply because of the name. Yes, the miniatures are premium for the most part. So are Reaper, minis, IMO. The cost difference is the final hurdle.

 RiTides wrote:
whether a shop is in a "good" or "bad" location is somewhat subjective

I'm not going to continue the tangent, but as someone who has worked extensively on new shop placement at several UK retailers, the amount of data and historical experience that has been collected in the field makes it very much not "somewhat subjective" (only people's opinions of what the data would be if we could access it).

How many boys in the western world from about 1950 onwards did not have toy soldiers or at least cowboys and indians? These used to be easily available in toy shops and nowadays there are still various ranges of knights, Star Wars figures and so on.

That is the basic introduction to wargames with figures. You start by making up narrative games, and maybe later you introduce some simple rules with dice.

One day a relative gives you a copy of Military Modelling or a paperback book on 'proper' wargames.

In my area almost nobody playes AoS. But hardely anyone played WHFB anymore either, so AoS does not do worse really...

I play since 1990 and always liked 40k more.
The last 10 years WHFB went down hard in this area, from bigger then 40k in some areas to almost dissappearing.
I will not sell my WHFB armies, something will turn up later i time, another GW or non-GW-system. AoS is not my thing either.

I don't know if Age of Sigmar is failting though.
In the local GW stores the models sell, better then WHFB did.
And that matters more than if veteran players, that do not buy much, are happy or not.
And i am one of those veteran players.

If AoS fails, the plug will be pulled or, a new option, it will move to the "Specialist games" corner as well.

That is the same corner from which i expect a WHFB revival in about a year from now, earler would be too soon to let the AoS brand become self-sufficient.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many boys in the western world from about 1950 onwards did not have toy soldiers or at least cowboys and indians? These used to be easily available in toy shops and nowadays there are still various ranges of knights, Star Wars figures and so on.

That is the basic introduction to wargames with figures. You start by making up narrative games, and maybe later you introduce some simple rules with dice.

One day a relative gives you a copy of Military Modelling or a paperback book on 'proper' wargames.

Heck, the very first 'proper' wargame was played using toy soldiers. (H.G. Wells - Little Wars.)

And even as a Wee Grump I had a system for rolling dice to see whether a shot killed one of the plastic army men. (A very simple system - roll a d6, 5-6 remove the target. Bazookas got the guy that you hit and the guys in an area around him. (I used a paper plate as a template.) I forget how I handled tanks, but I remember that one tank equaled ten guys - the most rudimentary of points systems, where one Joe equaled 1 point.)

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many boys in the western world from about 1950 onwards did not have toy soldiers or at least cowboys and indians? These used to be easily available in toy shops and nowadays there are still various ranges of knights, Star Wars figures and so on.

That is the basic introduction to wargames with figures. You start by making up narrative games, and maybe later you introduce some simple rules with dice.

One day a relative gives you a copy of Military Modelling or a paperback book on 'proper' wargames.

Heck, the very first 'proper' wargame was played using toy soldiers. (H.G. Wells - Little Wars.)

And even as a Wee Grump I had a system for rolling dice to see whether a shot killed one of the plastic army men. (A very simple system - roll a d6, 5-6 remove the target. Bazookas got the guy that you hit and the guys in an area around him. (I used a paper plate as a template.) I forget how I handled tanks, but I remember that one tank equaled ten guys - the most rudimentary of points systems, where one Joe equaled 1 point.)

The Auld Grump

Congratulations. This makes you more qualified than any of GW rules writers!

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many boys in the western world from about 1950 onwards did not have toy soldiers or at least cowboys and indians? These used to be easily available in toy shops and nowadays there are still various ranges of knights, Star Wars figures and so on.

That is the basic introduction to wargames with figures. You start by making up narrative games, and maybe later you introduce some simple rules with dice.

One day a relative gives you a copy of Military Modelling or a paperback book on 'proper' wargames.

Heck, the very first 'proper' wargame was played using toy soldiers. (H.G. Wells - Little Wars.)

And even as a Wee Grump I had a system for rolling dice to see whether a shot killed one of the plastic army men. (A very simple system - roll a d6, 5-6 remove the target. Bazookas got the guy that you hit and the guys in an area around him. (I used a paper plate as a template.) I forget how I handled tanks, but I remember that one tank equaled ten guys - the most rudimentary of points systems, where one Joe equaled 1 point.)

The Auld Grump

Congratulations. This makes you more qualified than any of GW rules writers!

What, that clearly broken system. Anyone can see that bazooka spam is OP, not too mention that the rule is just far too vague, by RAW I can bring a big paper plate and rofl stomp you.

Still just as good as 40K

puree wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Congratulations. This makes you more qualified than any of GW rules writers!

What, that clearly broken system. Anyone can see that bazooka spam is OP, not too mention that the rule is just far too vague, by RAW I can bring a big paper plate and rofl stomp you.

These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

I haven't been keeping as much of an eye on AOS lately since it does not appear to be a product that I am interested in, and I do not think that I am alone in this mindset. It's such a strange system that it would appear to have been cobbled together by a group of hedge fund managers attempting to make a game.

Blowing up the WHFB universe and replacing it with this multi-verse was the first big mistake. It destroyed most of the attachment people had to the previous universe and created some sort of infinite realm background that makes everything feel inconsequential. It's also lot more black and white, with the only big players really being Chaos vs Order (yes, I realize there are other forces). In that way it feels like AOS is tossing out the ubiquity Warhammer has always had over other games (through its wealth of factions) and transitioning backwards to only having a couple of pathways.

A lot of the destruction of the Old World seems to have been an attempt at trying to distance the game from its inspired roots. In that regard, it feels very forced. Shoving fantasy Space Marines into the game just made the game feel like more of a clone of 40k...and in that regard, why buy the same game twice?

Beyond the universe, the rules for the game seem bizarre. Without points- or more concisely, without solid balancing mechanism- games lose the feeling that you are working towards something. Whether it be refining an army or your play skill, there isn't really anywhere to rise up to. That's not to say it can't be a fun experience, but it is missing the key components necessary for a long-term game, or at the very minimum one that you'd want to keep investing in. And the cost of the new units certainly put that investing into serious question! Each new release is bigger and badder than the next, but I have to question why each of these new kits has to be as big as it is. Short of the miniatures just being larger, there doesn't feel like there is a ton of value to be had in these upsizings. Of course the miniatures coming with very high prices makes sense from a size perspective, but make you question the need to buy them beyond a collecting stand point.

I guess that's what AOS feels like overall- an attempt to shift a game primarily to the collecting perspective. That certainly isn't bad for those who are interested in that sort of experience, but I think that community pales in comparison to the gaming-focused side (even if they're just aspiring gamers). AOS doesn't look to be a game that will be successful in its current form by a wide stretch.

The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

We have got a little AoS group going here. We found out about it because the store that we buy Magic the Gathering from had a pile of them. It ended up being something a few of us picked up and we play it once or maybe twice a week. Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40k for as long as I've played Magic... it must be ten years. But I've never given it a second look.

Why AoS? Well first, it had nice boxes. Don't know how to put it and it's embarrassing but the starter box really caught my eye, and the cover sold the book, so to speak. The Chaos models were really neat inside, even if I can't paint them worth a damn. The game played well using the models in the starter box, and then we just added to those, and eventually bought some other models to add to them. I don't think we would have ever even given the game a chance if they had a "points system". I like how it's like Magic, you just take what you want (sort of). And if it's too lopsided for one player, they just tone it down, like Magic.

Price? Let's be honest the starter box of AoS or anywhere from 1-3 boxes of other miniatures still cost less than a case of boosters for Magic. I think I spend more in one release of Magic the Gathering then I will spend in 3 years of Age of Sigmar.

Trina wrote:
We have got a little AoS group going here. We found out about it because the store that we buy Magic the Gathering from had a pile of them. It ended up being something a few of us picked up and we play it once or maybe twice a week. Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40k for as long as I've played Magic... it must be ten years. But I've never given it a second look.

Why AoS? Well first, it had nice boxes. Don't know how to put it and it's embarrassing but the starter box really caught my eye, and the cover sold the book, so to speak. The Chaos models were really neat inside, even if I can't paint them worth a damn. The game played well using the models in the starter box, and then we just added to those, and eventually bought some other models to add to them. I don't think we would have ever even given the game a chance if they had a "points system". I like how it's like Magic, you just take what you want (sort of). And if it's too lopsided for one player, they just tone it down, like Magic.

Price? Let's be honest the starter box of AoS or anywhere from 1-3 boxes of other miniatures still cost less than a case of boosters for Magic. I think I spend more in one release of Magic the Gathering then I will spend in 3 years of Age of Sigmar.

Very interesting perspective from exactly the type of person GW seems to be targeting. How come you're on this forum btw?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

I dont know they are a 15 wound box, so quite resilient, I dont think you would need more than 1 box for AoS. Yes not cheap but hopefully not many are required in order to have an enjoyable diverse force.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

I dont know they are a 15 wound box, so quite resilient, I dont think you would need more than 1 box for AoS. Yes not cheap but hopefully not many are required in order to have an enjoyable diverse force.

Edit: i guess i should have gone to N&R before responding...
i see what you are on about now, Killkrazy...

i prefer the box of Juggers:(...
especially since it is actually a box of six models, rather than three...
not that that qualifies it as cheap, but it does make it less of a joke...
the new plastic designs also save you a lot of hassle with assembly, with no more huge gaps and miscast parts, and increasing the ease of conversions...

i can live with 10 Squids a mini, especially considering how much cooler the current design is, and how much bigger they are compared to the original metal Jugger from the Realms of Chaos days...
hit up an online retailer for your 20% off, and you are good to go...
8 Squids per Jugger with a big Chaos Knight riding each one, and all in Jes Goodwin's great style, seems like a good purchase to me...

cheers
jah

Trina wrote:Price? Let's be honest the starter box of AoS or anywhere from 1-3 boxes of other miniatures still cost less than a case of boosters for Magic. I think I spend more in one release of Magic the Gathering then I will spend in 3 years of Age of Sigmar.

Gotta be honest, from what I hear of Magic, I don't know if that's saying much. Coming from the other end, I could easily spend much less money on many more minis - especially with £100 Archaons and £60-for-3 cav floating around - and get as much or more enjoyment.

But I'd like to know more. What's the put-off of points systems? What's the difference in taking what you want (sort of) from a hypothetically balanced army list, themed around a faction or army?
From what I remember of that MTG starter I got ages ago, I have the feeling that 'faction' element might be the psychological disconnect between CCGs and TTWGs... But until I find it again to reread the rules so I look like less of a numpty, aren't certain cards restricted and the game somewhat self-levelling (i.e. you need certain numbers of lands, creatures, spells etc. most of the time) anyway?
And in AoS' case, if things are lopsided, who's the 'they' that fixes it?

I think you bring up an interesting point about certain similarities with CCGs, and GW making inroads with that audience. It'll be interesting to see how far they might get, and whether CCG players get a taste for other wargames. (For another what-I-remember-of-MTG moment, if you like the tactical aspects of setting up defences and attacks, rethinking your plans based on the other player's actions and successes, playing your hand at the right moment, and just general resource management, I think some non-AoS/40K wargames have the potential to be a pleasant surprise for you.)

And welcome to Dakka.

I used to play Warhammer in 5th/6th/7th, and I'm put off by points now too. As much as I think some 40k models are cool, the points system and all the rules make it a dead end for me. Speaking for myself, no points has given me a freedom and ease of entry that has made my hobbying go up ten fold. I'm into making units and armies that I think are cool, not trying to take a certain number of models in order to fit inside a points limit and army comp.

coldgaming wrote:
As much as I think some 40k models are cool, the points system and all the rules make it a dead end for me.

Is that points-based games in particular, or 40K's 'special' take on points and chrome? And doesn't unbound alleviate that for you?

I'm into making units and armies that I think are cool, not trying to take a certain number of models in order to fit inside a points limit and army comp.

Not actually gaming, then.

What do you think about making units and armies that match the setting and background?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

Exactly, people keep saying WHFB died due to cost (but part of that is down to the player base) and here we have a unit thats £60! Sod right off! I would much rather start a whole new system with £60 and probably end up with either a full force or the full bear bones of one for many other gaming systems out there.

 Vermis wrote:

coldgaming wrote:
As much as I think some 40k models are cool, the points system and all the rules make it a dead end for me.

Is that points-based games in particular, or 40K's 'special' take on points and chrome? And doesn't unbound alleviate that for you?

I'm into making units and armies that I think are cool, not trying to take a certain number of models in order to fit inside a points limit and army comp.

Not actually gaming, then.

What do you think about making units and armies that match the setting and background?

40k in particular, but in the same way as old Fantasy. 40k is just too messy looking to me to even get into. Also not a fan of formations.

Well, I still game with my minis, I just enjoy the points-less style. Not to say it's the only way to go. I love making armies in whatever way I see fit.

When I was a kid, I was very into the whole points thing and maxing out my armies and whatnot. I was more into the "game" part then. It's not what draws me to the hobby now though. Now I'm more into the hobby/narrative.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

I dont know they are a 15 wound box, so quite resilient, I dont think you would need more than 1 box for AoS. Yes not cheap but hopefully not many are required in order to have an enjoyable diverse force.

You mean I need to strike them 15 times with a hammer in order to crush them? Well if that's true I'll admit GW plastics have truly come a long way and the price is justified

I have to admit that I am thinking about at least some of the Stormcast from the boxed set, as they are crazy dirt cheap on Ebay, but they would never, ever be for Age of Sigmar. Either a full super cost-effective Kings of War army if I can find aa local group, or for indie skirmish games like Song of Blades and Heroes or Rack & Ruin.

 Korinov wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest kit for AoS is three cavalry for £60 British Pounds!

They are big Kaos Kavalry, but even so it's a bit of a joke, and reinforces the impression that ultimately AoS is not going to be a cheap alternative to WHFB but an expensive one.

I dont know they are a 15 wound box, so quite resilient, I dont think you would need more than 1 box for AoS. Yes not cheap but hopefully not many are required in order to have an enjoyable diverse force.

You mean I need to strike them 15 times with a hammer in order to crush them? Well if that's true I'll admit GW plastics have truly come a long way and the price is justified

£60 buys me:
25 men and the rulebook for Bolt Action with a bit left over for some weapon teams.
A full starter set for Warmachine or Hordes, complete with all the rules, templates and two 25 - 30 point sized armies (Basically two armies that are just a couple of£5 blisters away from being complete).
A Warmachine or Hordes starter warband box and enough blisters and units to make it a complete army. The only thing missing being my templates.
A Darkage starter box and a couple of extra units.
Battletech.
An Infinity army.

For the same price as three average at best models I could start up on an entirely new system and either have a complete army or the start of one, hell in Battletech's case I have enough stuff to potentially get 26 people playing right from the start... Or 25 if I ban the use of the Timberwolf.
£60 is not just a little high, £60 is ludicrously expensive.

I can buy the entire Stormcast side of the starter set on Ebay, plus at the very least a box of the archers/crossbowmen, for the same price as three Chaos knights?

That makes me giggle. And hurt inside. It's horrible that GW still meets my expectations of them.