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Right, I've changed the thread. Instead, let's go with this: how many times has Mankind proved itself true to it's claim as the only ones worthy of the galaxy? I can think of only one reason, but it is profound: Humans never give up. Others would say the same goes for the Orks, but Humans, unlike Orks, build civilizations and endure the unendurable. Amid the nightmares of the far future, Humans haven't lost themselves (unlike the Eldar and the Tau - the latter have been 'diluted' because of their cosmopolitanism IMO) but continue to exist and persevere despite all odds. No matter the plots of the Chaos Powers, or the prophecies of alien psykers, in the end Human choices can and do overturn those plots and prophecies, much to the anger of the gods.

Well I would like to think that humanity wasn't created by them but that probably won't get answered by GW ever.
If they were however its safe to say that they were left to evolve naturally in order to become superior through sheer adaptability and equalize on the qualities of all other species in the galaxy. Humanity not being the strongest, fastest, smartest etc. but keeping a good second place in all of those and more.
However humanity's self destructive nature puts that of the eldar to shame and than some. So I doubt that's the reason if they were indeed created by the Old Ones.

Edit: Also not sure if I should have used "than" or "then", I know then is for time, and than for instance when something is being better "than" something else. Sorry I learned English by watching Cartoon Network.

Yori wrote:Well I would like to think that humanity wasn't created by them but that probably won't get answered by GW ever.
If they were however its safe to say that they were left to evolve naturally in order to become superior through sheer adaptability and equalize on the qualities of all other species in the galaxy. Humanity not being the strongest, fastest, smartest etc. but keeping a good second place in all of those and more.
However humanity's self destructive nature puts that of the eldar to shame and than some. So I doubt that's the reason if they were indeed created by the Old Ones.

Fair enough, but I would argue that the Old Ones failed to oversee Human development all the way through. Although, I'm not sure if we would have wanted that. For all Mankind's faults, the Old Ones attempts to control galactic development were failures. The Orks are a plague to say the least, and the Eldar ultimately ended up ripping a hole between reality and the Warp. The Necrons came into existence because the Old Ones refused to help the Necrontyr. Who knows what nightmares would have resulted if they completed Mankind's development?

What if the Humans were made to replace the Eldar against the Necrons (Humans are an emerging psychic species),

Thats my main issue there.
There was no way the Old Ones could have known Humanity would emerge as a strong psychic force (in the future).
Hence, they cant have created them to replace the Eldar to fight the Crons.

As you said the OOs grasp on overseeing the development of their races was pretty poor at best.

Old One's didn't make the humans.

/gamesetmatch

Chowderhead wrote:Old One's didn't make the humans.

/gamesetmatch

Not in 'our' current form, no. But our ancestors, yes, they did. If the oldcron Codex is to be believed, then there was C'tan tampering involved. But even without that, older fluff has mentioned Old One 'influence' on Human development.

Ratius wrote:

What if the Humans were made to replace the Eldar against the Necrons (Humans are an emerging psychic species),

Thats my main issue there.
There was no way the Old Ones could have known Humanity would emerge as a strong psychic force (in the future).
Hence, they cant have created them to replace the Eldar to fight the Crons.

I can accept that the Old Ones' may not have designed Humans as they are portrayed, so here's a new question: what were they designed for? Is it still possible that they were supposed to clean up the Eldar's mess after the Fall? Even without C'tan involvement, there's still the Culexus and Blanks running around.

As you said the OOs grasp on overseeing the development of their races was pretty poor at best.

Poor? More like disastrous. Their attempt at 'Prime Directive' ended up starting the War in Heaven. Their efforts to correct that led to the birth of Chaos during the War and later on self-destructed in the Fall. And their efforts to stop the Enslavers with the Orks failed completely, unleashing the Green Wrecking Ball on the galaxy.

Tadashi wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Old One's didn't make the humans.

/gamesetmatch

Not in 'our' current form, no. But our ancestors, yes, they did. If the oldcron Codex is to be believed, then there was C'tan tampering involved. But even without that, older fluff has mentioned Old One 'influence' on Human development

Which older fluff?

Tadash wrote:

Ratius wrote:As you said the OOs grasp on overseeing the development of their races was pretty poor at best.

Poor? More like disastrous. Their attempt at 'Prime Directive' ended up starting the War in Heaven. Their efforts to correct that led to the birth of Chaos during the War and later on self-destructed in the Fall.

Possibly designed to bring some sort of order to the Galaxy?
Whilst Orks were/are as numerous (maybe a whole lot more) and their tech can be on a par with the Imperiums (assuming one can even figure out what makes it tick), they were never going to bring order, its not in their nature, their order would be one eternal brawl.

Perhaps the OOs saw Humanity as establishing a basic set of laws/rules and order for the Galaxy (even though these have been twisted and neglcted over the millenia).

Ratius wrote:
Whilst Orks were/are as numerous (maybe a whole lot more) and their tech can be on a par with the Imperiums (assuming one can even figure out what makes it tick), they were never going to bring order, its not in their nature, their order would be one eternal brawl.

But aren't the orks the way they are now due to the lack of the Brain Boyz, or is that not the case anymore?

You can't blame the Orks for being the way they are if there aren't any Old Ones around anymore to direct them I guess.

Hmm valid counter point.

However do we have any evidence that the Brain Boys were civilised and would have brought in order and decency? (dont have my books at hand so cant recall).

Ratius wrote:Hmm valid counter point.

However do we have any evidence that the Brain Boys were civilised and would have brought in order and decency? (dont have my books at hand so cant recall).

Haven't got the codex to hand but Orks: The Lost Race article which I guess is from 1st Ed Orks states

Imperial scholars have speculated that on the Ork world of origin, wherever that might be, there was once another Orkoid race. This race, difficult though it is to believe, was extremely intelligent, arose to dominance in just a few generations, and even created the legendary lost Ork Standard Template Constructs

Also

The intelligent lost race of Snotlings, known as the Brainboyz, were still diminutive in size, so they bred a race of less intelligent, but tougher and more brutal creatures to fight and work for them.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Old One's didn't make the humans.

/gamesetmatch

Not in 'our' current form, no. But our ancestors, yes, they did. If the oldcron Codex is to be believed, then there was C'tan tampering involved. But even without that, older fluff has mentioned Old One 'influence' on Human development

Which older fluff?

Can't find it, but I'm sure it's mentioned they influenced Humans to a 'certain extent'. Given this is 40k we're talking about, certain extent is probably an understatement.

Tadashi wrote:And their efforts to stop the Enslavers with the Orks failed completely, unleashing the Green Wrecking Ball on the galaxy.

Wut?

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Which older fluff?

Can't find it, but I'm sure it's mentioned they influenced Humans to a 'certain extent'. Given this is 40k we're talking about, certain extent is probably an understatement.

C'tan influence on humans being the Pariah gene, yes. Not sure about Old One / Human connection though.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And their efforts to stop the Enslavers with the Orks failed completely, unleashing the Green Wrecking Ball on the galaxy.

Wut?

The Jokaero and the Orks (then known as Krorks) were created as classic case of 'too little too late' when the Enslavers started pouring out of the Warp. The latter just went out of control, to say the least.

Which might be true, but your post implied that the Orks were created to combat the Enslavers specifically. If this is the case, what's the source?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Which older fluff?

Can't find it, but I'm sure it's mentioned they influenced Humans to a 'certain extent'. Given this is 40k we're talking about, certain extent is probably an understatement.

C'tan influence on humans being the Pariah gene, yes. Not sure about Old One / Human connection though.

AFAIK, the pariah gene is no longer C'tan based, thanks to the newcron Codex. It could be deliberate engineering or a natural mutation. As for the Old One-Human connection, that's what we're discussing - all we know is that they influenced Humans to a certain extent.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And their efforts to stop the Enslavers with the Orks failed completely, unleashing the Green Wrecking Ball on the galaxy.

Wut?

The Jokaero and the Orks (then known as Krorks) were created as classic case of 'too little too late' when the Enslavers started pouring out of the Warp. The latter just went out of control, to say the least.

Which might be true, but your post implied that the Orks were created to combat the Enslavers specifically. If this is the case, what's the source?

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Which older fluff?

Can't find it, but I'm sure it's mentioned they influenced Humans to a 'certain extent'. Given this is 40k we're talking about, certain extent is probably an understatement.

C'tan influence on humans being the Pariah gene, yes. Not sure about Old One / Human connection though.

AFAIK, the pariah gene is no longer C'tan based, thanks to the newcron Code. It could be deliberate engineering or a natural mutation. As for the Old One-Human connection, that's what we're discussing - all we know is that they influenced Humans to a certain extent.

Does the new Codex contradict this though, not as far as I am aware.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And their efforts to stop the Enslavers with the Orks failed completely, unleashing the Green Wrecking Ball on the galaxy.

Wut?

The Jokaero and the Orks (then known as Krorks) were created as classic case of 'too little too late' when the Enslavers started pouring out of the Warp. The latter just went out of control, to say the least.

Which might be true, but your post implied that the Orks were created to combat the Enslavers specifically. If this is the case, what's the source?

Codex Necrons states that the Orks and the Jokaero were not bred until after the Enslavers poured out of the Warp - but by then it was too late, and the Enslavers delivered the death blow to the dying race.

Old or New dex?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Does the new Codex contradict this though, not as far as I am aware.

Only the part where the pariah gene is from the C'tan. So the pariahs are gone, but the Culexus are still there. And the new Codex has not retconned the part about Humans being influenced by the Old Ones.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Old or New dex?

Old, but again, this is not contradicted by the new Codex. The new Codex gives us the Necrons' POV with regards to the War in Heaven, but the old Codex still has the POV of the non-Necrons.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Does the new Codex contradict this though, not as far as I am aware.

Only the part where the pariah gene is from the C'tan. So the pariahs are gone, but the Culexus are still there. And the new Codex has not retconned the part about Humans being influenced by the Old Ones.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Old or New dex?

Old, but again, this is not contradicted by the new Codex. The new Codex gives us the Necrons' POV with regards to the War in Heaven, but the old Codex still has the POV of the non-Necrons.

So you're using the source of the Old Codex for one but not the other and choosing what fluff you want to use

Where is the part referencing the Old Ones influencing Humans?

Chowderhead wrote:Old One's didn't make the humans.

/gamesetmatch

This

Pilau Rice wrote:
Which older fluff?

Tadashi wrote:Can't find it, but I'm sure it's mentioned they influenced Humans to a 'certain extent'. Given this is 40k we're talking about, certain extent is probably an understatement.

Maybe you can't find it because it never existed?
There is only one connection between C'tan and Humans, that is interest of the C'tan in Humans and IIRC the Humans encountered C'tan but not Necrons ( Emperor / Dragon ). So Human - C'Tan ( necron ) is old pre-newcron fluff. Do you know how its meant to be now, because I for one don't see any guideline what is still valid and what got the "everything we told you is a lie" treatment.?

Tadashi wrote: - all we know is that they influenced Humans to a certain extent.

Again: WE? I am sure i don't remember any old one - human connection.

Old ones created specialized species, like Eldar and orks. Those are designed species, great work cause they are still around but still not the same as Humans. Humans are IMO part of the races who found a place in the Galaxy after the old ones stopped dabbling with the future of the inhabitants of said Galaxy.
The C'tan, however and the final days of the old ones are so far in the past that it is nigh impossible to make any new race a some tens of thousands of years ago to achieve anything in that war. 'And that final face off was the end of the old ones.

Before any new Eldar or Ork dex adds something to the newcron picture of old ones, I think its safe to assume the Old ones weren't around when Humans saw their first day. C'tan were in old fluff able to influence as not all of them slept. A bit different to have a entitiy who is alive, even if a splintered existance isn't in a position to influence anyone, and to have a long dead entity.

I'm just waiting for some one to prove me wrong on this one but...

I remember reading somewhere, I forget, that either the old one's or the eldar had come to earth and detected early humans. They sense that they would have an untold effects on the future and would be intertwine with it, but they did not know how or when, so they let them be.

I think it might have been in the alpha/omegadon book

I think you might be thinking of WHF when the Old Ones came and created the Human race.

EH the old ones went down 75 million years ago. Humans where not around in any form during the Necron/old one throw down.

^ This.

HUMANS didn't exist during the old ones' "war in heaven".

They weren't "designed" by the old ones to replace anyone.
They just ... happened. Random mutation (from the Eldar point of view. Since they WERE designed, they regard anything else to be sub-par) without the aid of any form of "intelligent design".

chromedog wrote:^ This.

HUMANS didn't exist during the old ones' "war in heaven".

They weren't "designed" by the old ones to replace anyone.
They just ... happened. Random mutation (from the Eldar point of view. Since they WERE designed, they regard anything else to be sub-par) without the aid of any form of "intelligent design".

I concede defeat.

But for a sub-par species, Humans can still do things no other should normally be able to do. Time and time again, just as things approach completion, Humans have overturned the plots of the gods and the elder races in their favor. The cost may be high, but it shows the great strength and potential of the Human species.

Thanks for confusing the hell out of me Tad

I'm not sure it's good show to change the original post entirely because your original sentiment was flawed.

You've made the existing posts in this thread irrelevant ...

Yeah, start a new thread Tad, this ones getting even more confusing.

Indeed.