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Is there any particular reason, other than that Astartes are better than Guardsmen and thus have better weapons, that SM Scout Shotguns are S4 while their Guard Equivalents are only S3?

I have read from some sources is that it is because of the type of ammunition, a solid slug vs a shot. One might think it is a SM's enhanced physique that lets him fire the weapon, but don't forget that in Necromunda, which does not contain the aformentioned super soldiers, unmodified humans can use them.

So why can't the guard use them? Only veterans can take shotguns anyway, so it's not like you'll see a 50 man blob squad charge up and fire 100 S4 shots. It'd actually differentiate the shotgun from the lasgun other than the ability to assault after shooting and the range difference.

I thought manstopper rounds were hollow points, not slug rounds? Was I wrong? Anyways, on to the question.

Boring non-fluff answer: game balance.

Possible fluff explanations: If it is due to ammunition (solid slug vs shot) there are several reasons a guardsman may choose to use different ammunition than a SM, and it would likely be a combination of them.

First, you have a better chance of hitting your target. A Space Marine, with their decades of experience and super human reflexes may not need that as much as raw power, while the guard may prefer increased chances of hitting to stopping power.

Second, you have to take into account the intended target. There is a reason we largely stopped using 30-06 ammo in war, but continue to use it when hunting big game. It was overkill for humans. Likewise, the IG typically faces humans, and thus scatter shot is typically sufficient, while a SM will often be facing orks, daemons, tyranids, etc.

Third, you already mentioned: SM just use bigger weapons. I really don't understand your counter to this point. Ok, in Necromunda humans can fire manstopper rounds. That doesn't mean the SM manstopper round is the same thing as a regular humans, or that a SM shotgun is the same size as a regular one.

Those are my thoughts. I don't think there is a hard answer.

Care to elaborate on the game balance part?

As for the fluff explanation, I will concede on your slug/shot argument.

However, IG regularly face Orks, Tyranids, and Chaotic forces so they are just as likely to need the inhuman stopping power of a manstopper rounds.

Also, assuming the IoM has some standardization of ammo, a shot fired from one gun should have similar performance to one fired out of another right? The difference should be as drastic as say, G3 vs L96, which both use the real world 7.62 NATO round.

It's not exactly a "better" weapon, it's just a question of chance to hit (Guard uses scatter ammunition) vs shot power. Unfortunately, TT battles are an abstraction, and the bonus to hit (or penalty, for the Marine) simply gets lost on the way, making the +1 Strength the only difference.
Basically, one could make the comparison by saying the Guard uses 12ga buckshot whereas Marines use a KS-23's Barricade round.

Shotguns for Marines and Guard used to be the same once - then the Dark Angels took away a step from this. From the Codex:

"Shotguns are sturdy and versatile weapons wielded by warriors across the Imperium. Space Marine Scouts sometimes carry shotguns when they know their mission will involve short-range firefights and fast-moving tactics. The Dark Angels issue their Scouts with special 'Manstopper' shells for use in their combat shotguns. These use a particularly heavy solid cartridge with a massive propellant charge, making it more powerful than a normal solid shot."

Since then, this change has been adopted by all the other Space Marine Chapters as well (including vanilla) and is now presented as having always been the case.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

acekevin8412 wrote:Also, assuming the IoM has some standardization of ammo, a shot fired from one gun should have similar performance to one fired out of another right? The difference should be as drastic as say, G3 vs L96, which both use the real world 7.62 NATO round.

Depends on what source you're looking at. Going by GW material one would assume so (also see GW's Inquisitor RPG on this subject), but various non-studio sources have portrayed Marine weaponry as being much more powerful. In FFG's RPGs, Marine guns now hurt about 50% more than the stuff wielded by ordinary people. Ironically, this includes stuff like flame throwers, lascannons and plasma guns. Granted, it's not difficult to make up an excuse for this, such as referring to special fuel properties or an advanced charge output.

This makes me think about the Storm Troopers and their access to Bolters. I'm assuming TT-wise they are the same, but fluff-wise wouldn't the standard Astartes Bolter be too big, bulky and have too much recoil for a non-Astartes? Makes me wonder if they get a stripped down version to be lighter/more compact. Anyone know?

Anfauglir wrote:This makes me think about the Storm Troopers and their access to Bolters. I'm assuming TT-wise they are the same, but fluff-wise wouldn't the standard Astartes Bolter be too big, bulky and have too much recoil for a non-Astartes? Makes me wonder if they get a stripped down version to be lighter/more compact. Anyone know?

Marine bolters are certainly big and bulky. Granted, this goes for all bolt weapons, but I would assume that theirs are slightly bigger still. Once, I've read the notion that the additional space created by scaling the weapon's frame up for Astartes is used up by a thin sheet of armour (which would make sense, considering that Marines might often end up using their gun as a club in close combat) or additional internal systems (see also this cross-section).

That said, in GW's Inquisitor RPG, humans and Marines still used the same bolters, so the difference may be negligible. Let's not forget that in GW's books, Marines are "only" 7 feet big - and not 8 or 9 as some Black Library novels claim. Their height and the size of their hands is within a range that could be achieved by some people in the Imperium, especially when I'm looking at the Catachans. Note how the special character Sgt. Harker is able to wield and operate a heavy bolter "like other men handle their rifle".
So, it might be a case-by-case basis. That said, it shouldn't be too difficult to simply swap the grips, too, depending on who would wield them. This is done in real life as well, and whilst likely not something the Munitorum would do for the average Guardsman, the Storm Trooper regiment and the various Grenadier formations are a different story.

Also, GW material hints at very little recoil by bolt weapons. The projectile leaves the barrel at low velocity (2E Wargear book + WD Deathwatch rules) before its rocket motor kicks in, and the weapon's own weight would further minimize the amount by how much the force of the discharage would move it. Furthermore, if you look at the cross-section once more, you will notice a blast compensator on the bolter, whose basic principle seems to work somewhat similar to a recoilless rifle.

I am aware that non-studio sources may at times describe this differently, however. Due to the lack of canon and consistency, it simply depends on what book you're looking at.

I know that SoB use a smaller pattern of bolter dubbed the Godwyn De'az pattern bolter. Not sure about the IG though.

acekevin8412 wrote:I know that SoB use a smaller pattern of bolter dubbed the Godwyn De'az pattern bolter.

I suppose it would lack the armoured plating of the Astartes version, yeah. Unfortunately, the Godwyn-De'az has never been described in detail by GW, all they said is that it's "equal" to the Marine version.

I think SM shotguns are just gigantic 2 gauge shotguns. Normal humans simply cannot wield them.

acekevin8412 wrote:Is there any particular reason, other than that Astartes are better than Guardsmen and thus have better weapons, that SM Scout Shotguns are S4 while their Guard Equivalents are only S3?

As far as FFG goes, they draw a distinction between Astartres grade shotguns and the weapons normal people do.

I have read from some sources is that it is because of the type of ammunition, a solid slug vs a shot. One might think it is a SM's enhanced physique that lets him fire the weapon, but don't forget that in Necromunda, which does not contain the aformentioned super soldiers, unmodified humans can use them.

I wouldn't call Necromunda people - at least the hive gangers - normal. Especially not the Goliaths or the Heavies (the guys who can carry heavy weaponry without some sort of tripod or wheeled getup the way the IG needs...)

So why can't the guard use them? Only veterans can take shotguns anyway, so it's not like you'll see a 50 man blob squad charge up and fire 100 S4 shots. It'd actually differentiate the shotgun from the lasgun other than the ability to assault after shooting and the range difference.

Even if the size difference isn't an issue, we know nothing about the manufacturing approach or the ammunition requirements or anything like that for Astartes shotguns and its silly to assume they're just going to coincidentally be identically designed. Moreover we don't know what sorts of drawbacks to the scout shotguns that might make them undesirable for mass production (over a lasgun or even an autogun or regular shotgun.) There's more to 'uesful' than just raw firepower, otherwise we could just make the same argument 'why doesn't the IG use bolters/grenade launchers/whatever weapon you think is more useful.'

I think it would make sense for STs to get specially modified Bolters with reduced armour, therefore making them a more appropriate weapon in terms of size and weight for humans. Advanced compensator and projectile tech takes the recoil issue away, I guess.

It's only squad leaders/officers who have access to them anyway, as far as I'm aware, so such customisation on the part of the DM is believable, as it's not like they're mass-mass producing them like the Lasgun, etc.

I kind of assumed the guard are issued with shotgun rounds that pack less of a punch because the 'lesser' rounds are cheaper to manufacture, and the guard needs more of them. Granted, that's me just throwing something out there, but it's my knee-jerk reaction.

"The smooth-bore combat shotgun fires a massive low velocity shot which fragments in flight into several pieces of spinning metal or plastic. Although the weapon has only a short range it is quite dangerous against unarmoured targets. Combat shotguns have magazines of shells and rarely need to be reloaded. They are strongly made, simple weapons ideally suited to brave or not very intelligent troops. A special feature is its ability to fire different kinds of special shot, including solid shells and loose scatter shot.
Ordinary shells have a Strength of 4. Scatter shells have a Strength of only 3 but a blast area of 1".
If a target is hit by a shotgun but not slain, then it is automatically knocked back 2" and will fall over on a d6 roll of 4+. A knocked over model must spend its next movement phase standing up. Note that this rule only affects ordinary troopers - not vehicles, robots, Terminators or dreadnoughts."

Gotta love the 2E Wargear book.

I suppose the blast area and the knockdown have been removed over the past editions, so that solid shot is now clearly a superior choice whereas before it depended on circumstances. Of course, fluffwise, I assume these special effects would still be in place - even though their representation in the TT rules (as well as the option to choose) has gotten lost, it would still affect the various armies' loadout.

Care to elaborate on the game balance part?

Shotguns are currently a free exchange, you swap one range shot for the ability to assault (which is a dubious option a lot of the time with 10 humans). If guard had S4 shotguns, and it was still a free swap, no one would ever take lasgun.

Think about it most the time vets are either in transports and moving or disembarked at close range to shoot the crap out of something, so you rarely use the range shot as is. You would have to charge for it to make it an option at all.

Then again I always thought vets should be able to take bolters for 2pts a piece.