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http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/24/11867152-german-doctors-apologize-for-holocaust-horrors?lite

I've met and talked with Jews that were in those camps. It was pretty bad stuff.

Relapse wrote:I've met and talked with Jews that were in those camps. It was pretty bad stuff.

Anyway, OT, yeah. It's a little to late to apologize, Doc. Like, 70 years too late.

A bit of an understatement, I know. I don't have the words to express my feelings about what I was told.

Germans apologizing condescendingly for things done by other, mostly dead Germans, huh? I guess we can finally move on now.

Relapse wrote:A bit of an understatement, I know. I don't have the words to express my feelings about what I was told.

I think "Apocalyptic" would work. But that still feels wrong, like there isn't a word to comprehend what happened.


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Manchu wrote:Germans apologizing condescendingly for things done by other, mostly dead Germans, huh? I guess we can finally move on now.

I don't think we'll ever move on.

This is the first man-made genocide of massive proportions (See: 10 million). It's going to be ingrained in the minds of the Jews for as long as the religion stands.

Sure there is, or rather a phrase: scientific materialism. Best part: it has become the dominant metaphysical assumption in our culture.

Germany still falling on it's sword every other day with an almost need to flagellate whilst Japan continues to bury it's head in the sand and pretend that nothing happened at all or turn things into anime with cute large eyed characters portraying brutal and sadistic regimes.

My great uncle was a POW and worked the Burma-Thailand railway. To his dying day he would pick up anything he found on the street of use, paper clips, bottle tops, anything like that. When he was liberated (actually just abandoned in the jungle by the Japanese), he weighed about 7 stone, despite being a big man over six feet and broad shouldered. He despised the Japanese until he died, nothing Japanese was allowed in the house and he'd tell me and anyone else who'd listen that they were not real people but devils in a man's skin.

Whats done is done. No point worrying about the past.

Mr Hyena wrote:Whats done is done. No point worrying about the past.

"If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it."

More like, no point employing the past as a useful counter-example to one's current legitimacy.

Oh wait ...

I've always thought gak like this was pointless personally, like Gordon Brown apologising for slavery in 2009 or whatever it was.

Why the feth should I feel guilty, about gak that happened when my great great great great Granddad was alive?

gak, we all came from Africa originally, how far back do you want to go? I don't see why a modern German should have to apologise for the actions of dead Germans 70 years ago frankly. What the hell did it have to do with him? It seems utterly pointless and call me a cynic, achieves nothing at all.

I have Irish ancestors, if I find out my great great granddad got fingered by Oliver Cromwell, am I supposed to ask for an apology off myself?

People would get better at moving on if we just you know.. actually moved on, instead of wringing our hands and constantly worrying about saying sorry to people who weren't even alive to be offended.

Chowderhead wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Whats done is done. No point worrying about the past.

"If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it."

Theres a difference in learning from history and constantly apologising for it.

mattyrm wrote:I've always thought gak like this was pointless personally, like Gordon Brown apologising for slavery in 2009 or whatever it was.

Why the feth should I feel guilty, about gak that happened when my great great great great Granddad was alive?

gak, we all came from Africa originally, how far back do you want to go? I don't see why a modern German should have to apologise for the actions of dead Germans 70 years ago frankly. What the hell did it have to do with him? It seems utterly pointless and call me a cynic, achieves nothing at all.

I have Irish ancestors, if I find out my great great granddad got fingered by Oliver Cromwell, am I supposed to ask for an apology off myself?

People would get better at moving on if we just you know.. actually moved on, instead of wringing our hands and constantly worrying about saying sorry to people who weren't even alive to be offended.

I agree, Germany's continued apologizing reads like self harming these days, but Japan refusing to acknowledge that it 'did anything wrong' at all or that 'Nanking was the Chinese doing it to themselves for propaganda reasons and then blaming us' is frankly ludicrous.

As to time, this is still living memory for many people. Not hundreds of years ago.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I've always thought gak like this was pointless personally, like Gordon Brown apologising for slavery in 2009 or whatever it was.

Why the feth should I feel guilty, about gak that happened when my great great great great Granddad was alive?

gak, we all came from Africa originally, how far back do you want to go? I don't see why a modern German should have to apologise for the actions of dead Germans 70 years ago frankly. What the hell did it have to do with him? It seems utterly pointless and call me a cynic, achieves nothing at all.

I have Irish ancestors, if I find out my great great granddad got fingered by Oliver Cromwell, am I supposed to ask for an apology off myself?

People would get better at moving on if we just you know.. actually moved on, instead of wringing our hands and constantly worrying about saying sorry to people who weren't even alive to be offended.

I agree, Germany's continued apologizing reads like self harming these days, but Japan refusing to acknowledge that it 'did anything wrong' at all or that 'Nanking was the Chinese doing it to themselves for propaganda reasons and then blaming us' is frankly ludicrous.

As to time, this is still living memory for many people. Not hundreds of years ago.

Agreed on all points.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Whats done is done. No point worrying about the past.

"If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it."

Theres a difference in learning from history and constantly apologising for it.

Exactly. Ive learned loads from history. I know that hate and violence breed more hate and violence, I know that perpetuating terrible offences against peoples causes that hatred to be passed on to another generation, meaning the cycle of violence will literally never ever end. Thus, I think we should always strive to hold the moral high ground, and we should never stoop to the crimes of our enemies, lest we become as bad as them, and doom future generations.

That said, I don't see why the feth Matty at the ripe old age of 32 should have to say sorry to any fether that he hasn't personally wronged, and if Matty keeps on doing it, then he will simply remind the people of what they are trying to forget about anyway and probably stoke the coals of hatred for a few generations longer than he needs to!

Chowderhead wrote:
It's a little to late to apologize, Doc. Like, 70 years too late.

QFT

Show true remorse by eating a bullet. Otherwise this guy needs to stfu.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I agree, Germany's continued apologizing reads like self harming these days, but Japan refusing to acknowledge that it 'did anything wrong' at all or that 'Nanking was the Chinese doing it to themselves for propaganda reasons and then blaming us' is frankly ludicrous.

As to time, this is still living memory for many people. Not hundreds of years ago.

Regards this mate, I totally understand your great uncles point. As I said, this is why I don't think we should be happy to invade people so readily. Hate really does beget hate, and even though I know its stupid, well.. some of it, I really do hate Muslims. I'm fully aware that its a reaction to 4 tours of the sandbox, but I still feel it. Knowing its somewhat illogical doesn't help me to suddenly rewire my brain.

But regards the Japs.. the gak that happened to our lads on the railway was truly stomach churning. Nobody disputes that.. But I was over there for months, I had about 5 trips out there all in, and they were really really nice people. I very much doubt that the Japanese have never apologised for their actions and claim that it was all lies for propaganda purposes. Its probably one extreme group that says that, but the majority surely are aware of the facts. I visited the peace museum in Hiroshima and I didn't see any overt propaganda or half truths in everything I saw there, so I hardly think that view is common place.


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CT GAMER wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
It's a little to late to apologize, Doc. Like, 70 years too late.

QFT

Show true remorse by eating a bullet. Otherwise this guy needs to stfu.

Possibly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read from you.

And your the guy who claims I post a little close to the bone?!

As a profession there is nothing wrong with accepting what they did and saying that they are sorry for it. The lessons learned and laws passed due to the action of medical practitioners impact us today. Many of our laws in regards to medical trials and informed consent are based on the experiments conducted at these times.

And 30-40 years ago even the US was still doing the things these doctors did with government approval.

So it is never to late to say you are sorry, and we should never stop learning from it.

I hadn't particularly noticed Germany apologising lately.

The Japanese government has offered a number of formal apologies for various actions taken before and during WW2 and has given monetary compensation too. The way it has been done doesn't satisfy everyone. At some point you have to stop blaming people for things their grandparents may have done, though.

There are of course right-wing Japanese nationalists who claim it was all lies and want to keep it out of text books, etc.

The Germans have also paid compensation.

I don't think there is any point in German doctors apologising now, considering not a single currently active doctor can have been born until after the end of the war. I mean they can't feel any sense of personal responsibility.

Kilkrazy wrote:

The Japanese government has offered a number of formal apologies for various actions taken before and during WW2 and has given monetary compensation too. The way it has been done doesn't satisfy everyone. At some point you have to stop blaming people for things their grandparents may have done, though.

There are of course right-wing Japanese nationalists who claim it was all lies and want to keep it out of text books, etc.

I figured as much. Agreed on all points by the way.

I suppose the one thing this could stand for is the idea that Germans shouldn't be pointing fingers at "those Nazis" when it was really everybody -- and that would be a good lesson because, in subtle ways, its still is everybody (and not just the Germans, either).

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Japanese government has offered a number of formal apologies for various actions taken before and during WW2 and has given monetary compensation too. The way it has been done doesn't satisfy everyone. At some point you have to stop blaming people for things their grandparents may have done, though.

There are of course right-wing Japanese nationalists who claim it was all lies and want to keep it out of text books, etc.

I think I've seen news articles being fairly scathing of Japanese refusal to mention war crimes during the war in it's teaching of history or in discussion.

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/McNeill.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6470709.stm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1214/p04s01-woap.html

As an outsider, I know that shame is a very big deal for the Japanese cultural psyche and that admitting these things brings shame and embarrassment. So denial or downplaying seem to be occurring.

Had to do a presentation for university on the holocaust, and what a bad choice of subject it was, reading some of the stuff made me feel ill.

An apology does not make up for it, especially when its said long after the event. Anyone can say sorry.

Matty sorry to have offended your delicate sensabilities. I truely apologize.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Japanese government has offered a number of formal apologies for various actions taken before and during WW2 and has given monetary compensation too. The way it has been done doesn't satisfy everyone. At some point you have to stop blaming people for things their grandparents may have done, though.

There are of course right-wing Japanese nationalists who claim it was all lies and want to keep it out of text books, etc.

I think I've seen news articles being fairly scathing of Japanese refusal to mention war crimes during the war in it's teaching of history or in discussion.

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/McNeill.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6470709.stm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1214/p04s01-woap.html

As an outsider, I know that shame is a very big deal for the Japanese cultural psyche and that admitting these things brings shame and embarrassment. So denial or downplaying seem to be occurring.

My Japanese room mates were shocked to learn of some of the things that the Japanese army did during WW2 as they watched history shows. One of my friends had a father in China during the war, and I was happy they never had anything on t.v. about the Japanese there.

CT GAMER wrote:Matty sorry to have offended your delicate sensabilities. I truely apologize.

What part of my retort indicated I was in any possible way offended by you saying that a German bloke should shoot himself in the head?

mattyrm wrote:
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CT GAMER wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
It's a little to late to apologize, Doc. Like, 70 years too late.

QFT

Show true remorse by eating a bullet. Otherwise this guy needs to stfu.

Possibly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read from you.

And your the guy who claims I post a little close to the bone?!

Are you just trying to make me sound as big a wimp as.. well.. some other people are?

It wasnt remotely offensive or directed at me, it was just a flat out ridiculous thing to say. Why on earth should a random German bloke who wasn't alive during WW2 shoot himself in the head.. to say sorry?

This is just an exercise in masochism. Germany needs to get over it. It's in the history books. Everyone knows what went down. This has become such a part of the German psyche it's ridiculous. Apologies from a bunch of doctors that weren't cognizant (if they were even born) at the time are worthless.
Really, the holocaust was horrific, but the only thing that makes it different from the other genocides that preceded and followed it is the amount of media attention it got (and no, that's not a Jew joke; don't even go there). In another 50-100 years, it's just going to be another entry in a long history of humans murdering each other.

Is it significant because it is just some Germans saying they are sorry, or because it is a medical body that also existed during those times?

It is not just Germans saying they are sorry, it is also a group of people that took an oath to heal who probably also want to reaffirm that oath and make sure that they will never betray it the way their former professional coworkers did.

People might be upset about some Germans saying they are sorry in 2012, but how many of us really have a stake in the fire here?

So, to the extent that the institution is acknowledging that quite apart from any coercion that institution enthusiastically participated in atrocities -- well, what do we do? Can that institution continue to exist? If it's disbanned, won't another (with the same people) just be formed? The people who should have apologized on behalf of this institution died without doing so. Someone else doing it is a gesture of judgment and arrogance. "They were bad; aren't you glad you have us instead?"

I'm not sure where 10 million comes from to be honest. I thought it was quite well established to be around 6 million. Not that it makes it any better.

A more fitting and relevant apology would be from the Catholic church for not condoning contraception in Africa, which allowed AIDS to become much more widespread.