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If the MSS works, and the pskyer hits themselves, are you required to roll a psychic test and try to ID yourself with your force weapon (considering you have enough psychic go-go juice left)
this came up in a game yesterday-
Mephistion assaulted some warriors with a overlord with MSS.
I failed the leadership (the only time i roll triple six's....), and i hit myself and wounded myself.
The necron player said i had to force weapon my self (or try to, at least)
I said i could elect not to force weapon myself (as i can elect not to force weapon a model)
The first case won out, it didn't have a huge impact on the game (he had two squads of six wraiths running around. I was dead before i started hahaha)
so, thoughts?

Well the MSS states it can benifit from any abilities of the models close combat weapons, so yes I'd say he could attempt to ID.

The Force Weapon's extra property (beyond being a Power Weapon) is to grant you an extra psychic power. If the scarabs can't force you to use psychic powers Mepiston and any other psyker is in the clear on that account.

Spetulhu wrote:The Force Weapon's extra property (beyond being a Power Weapon) is to grant you an extra psychic power. If the scarabs can't force you to use psychic powers Mepiston and any other psyker is in the clear on that account.

This is correct.

you can not force a Paychic test, because the MSS do not say that they can.

However remember that the MSS test is after the start of the assault phase when he would have to do any powers.

Leth wrote:However remember that the MSS test is after the start of the assault phase when he would have to do any powers.

Well the underlined is not 100% accurate.

Not all powers are required to be cast at the start of the assault phase.

Some powers, like using a force weapon to ID someone, or using nemesis force weapon activation on a unit of GK's occurs after an unsaved wound is caused, at Initiative.

grendel083 wrote:Well the MSS states it can benifit from any abilities of the models close combat weapons, so yes I'd say he could attempt to ID.

Wrong. Force Weapon gives following ability:
"Force weapons [snip] confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat." (Brb page 50). Irrelevant portions snipped.
MSS'd model does benefit from this special ability, by having extra psychic power available. But Mindshackle scarabs do NOT give permission to use psychic powers.
Therefore MSS cannot be used to activate a Force Weapon.

I knoow many Necron players disagree, but they have no RAW backing.
Some Necron players even go as far as claim that activating Force Weapon via MSS could be done even if the Psyker had used all of his allotted powers for that turn, which is just ludicrous.

The Mind Shackle Scarabs allow you to use any bonuses of the weapon(s) that the affected model is wielding.
As quoted the Force weapon gives the model the Psychic Power, the weapon itself does not have a psychic power.
Thus, RAW I would be inclined to say that no you cannot activate the Force Weapon.

That being said the INAT FAQ states differently:

◊NEC.81D.02 – Q: Can a model affected by
Mindshackle Scarabs be forced to activate its Force
Weapon’s Instant Death ability?
A: Yes, provided the model is still able to use a psychic
power that turn [clarification].

Note: Im not using the INAT FAQ as a rules basis for this argument, but the OP should be aware that this ruling exists in the case that
he attends events or his gaming group uses the INAT for rulings.

Yep, this is an INAT mistake - there is absolutely no RAW support whatsoever to say that you can activate FW, as this is not a property of the weapon

Icemyn wrote:That being said the INAT FAQ states differently:

◊NEC.81D.02 – Q: Can a model affected by
Mindshackle Scarabs be forced to activate its Force
Weapon’s Instant Death ability?
A: Yes, provided the model is still able to use a psychic
power that turn [clarification].

Note: Im not using the INAT FAQ as a rules basis for this argument, but the OP should be aware that this ruling exists in the case that
he attends events or his gaming group uses the INAT for rulings.

The INAT FAQ is like a fine wine, best left on the shelf until the time is right. In other words, it's used almost exclusively for big tournaments (occasionally a local store is going to use it, at which point he'd know to look up what the INAT is since they tend to announce it ahead of time), and he'd never have to worry about it unless he went to one of those tournaments since most people don't use it/don't even know what it is. I know you were just trying to give him a heads up about, "there is a ruling against" what we're telling him, but there's no need to complicate the matter with something that is not part of the game, unless a person as a player allows it to be part of the game.

DeathReaper wrote:

Leth wrote:However remember that the MSS test is after the start of the assault phase when he would have to do any powers.

Well the underlined is not 100% accurate.

Not all powers are required to be cast at the start of the assault phase.

Some powers, like using a force weapon to ID someone, or using nemesis force weapon activation on a unit of GK's occurs after an unsaved wound is caused, at Initiative.

If the MSS test was used on a normal squad member and the player controlling them decided to activate the nemesis force weapons for the squad would that make the MSS's target cause instant death then as well?

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Some powers, like using a force weapon to ID someone, or using nemesis force weapon activation on a unit of GK's occurs after an unsaved wound is caused, at Initiative.

If the MSS test was used on a normal squad member and the player controlling them decided to activate the nemesis force weapons for the squad would that make the MSS's target cause instant death then as well?

Since the Nemesis force weapons are activated for the unit, I would say that this is the case, yes.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Leth wrote:However remember that the MSS test is after the start of the assault phase when he would have to do any powers.

Well the underlined is not 100% accurate.

Not all powers are required to be cast at the start of the assault phase.

Some powers, like using a force weapon to ID someone, or using nemesis force weapon activation on a unit of GK's occurs after an unsaved wound is caused, at Initiative.

If the MSS test was used on a normal squad member and the player controlling them decided to activate the nemesis force weapons for the squad would that make the MSS's target cause instant death then as well?

It wouldn't matter because the models in the squad are all 1 wound models (Save for paladins, get there in a sec), so it doesn't matter if they inflict ID or not. If a character is attached and the unit uses their ID abilities, the character is NOT affected by this since he does not have the brotherhood of psykers rule, so an IC must pass his own test to activate it. Now we come to the paladins, we'll use paladins vs. scarabs with an attached IC for the example since they're both multi-wound units. Now let's say the MSS are used to infect a paladin with a basic NFW and the unit attacks the scarabs. Should the unit use their NFW to get the ID on scarabs, then by all means the blows struck by the infected model will indeed inflict instant death on its wounds. However, it doesn't work too well if the character infected happens to have a Halberd, as the controlling player can chose to forgo activating the NFWs at the I6 step, but can activate them at the I4 step thereby negating the danger of an ID causing attack on the paladins.

wow guys, thank for all the fantastic responses!
In my gaming group, we only use INAT FAQ for final rounds, and we only have one necron player who never has gotten to the finals
thanks

Lond Dragoon - your last point is totally incorrect. In order to activate NFW you MUST do so on the first unsaved wound. You cannot forgo I6 to activate at I4, as that is now when the first unsaved wound was caused.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lond Dragoon - your last point is totally incorrect. In order to activate NFW you MUST do so on the first unsaved wound. You cannot forgo I6 to activate at I4, as that is now when the first unsaved wound was caused.

Learn something new every day, just found that one.

when it says it uses weapon bonuses its lie ignores armour of instant death or strenght 10 but not if you can choose to active its power

destuctir wrote:when it says it uses weapon bonuses its lie ignores armour of instant death or strenght 10 but not if you can choose to active its power

That is because the weapon can not cast its psychic power, the owner of the force weapon has to cast the power that the sword confers upon him.

so you can not use the ID ability, as the sword can not cast psychic powers.

destuctir wrote:when it says it uses weapon bonuses its lie ignores armour of instant death or strenght 10 but not if you can choose to active its power

I already quoted the relevant passage earlier. Force Weapons give multiple bonuses. 1) They ignore armour as normal power weapon 2) NFW's give NFW specific bonuses 3) They give the wielder extra Psychic power.
Using this psychic power is called "Activating force weapon". MSS does not allow use of Psychic powers -> You cannot use MSS to activate Force Weapon. Very clearcut.