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So, like so many other 40k gamer communities, GKs are ALL OVER.

Instead of joining them, I want to create a non-SM list to counter them.

What are people's experiences with Necrons and accomplishing this? Warp Quake makes Immortals dumb and heavy Staff of Light units. Since you have to stay out of assault, it seems that you need to be able to kill tons of GKs on the way in. Since GKs are mostly taking troops, you also have the scenario to deal with.

So any thoughts, tips, tactics? Or is it simply time to join the GK horde and come up with an anti-GK GK list?

Necrons do just fine.

Death & despair combos are generally pretty hilarious against GK.

but Despair is a template. Which means getting close on foot since DS isn't reliable. Or drop from a transport near the unit?

Seems like a lot of wasted models to get Deathmarks (which don't seem all that great) and a Despair Cryp just for his template.

GK can be a tough matchup, but Necrons have all tools to deal with them fairly reliably. The only build that really gives them serious trouble, is Draigowing

-Scarabs are great for knocking out their Psyriflemen dreads. Since they are robbed of their DCCW, Scarabs can munch them down fairly easy. Keep them away from Purifers, and the Incinerators/Heavy incinerators though.

-Sweeps work great as well, for de-meching them. You will probably want to move flat-out each turn, for the cover save though.

-QS is fairly resilent against GK shooting. They Need 6's to pen with their dreads, and 6's to pen with the Psycannons. Keep in mind though, that their dreads are very accurate. Cutting them down early, will go a long way in ensuring the surviability of your vehicles.

-Lanceteks are good at poping vehicles from a distance. You'll also want at least 1 from each court, for the Solar pulses. This will help trim down the enemy shooting for 2 turns, buying you valuable time, to get where you need to be. Be wary of searchlights though, and position accordingly.

Once they are out of their transports, then Tesla them to death. You'll mulch through them pretty quickly.

Wraiths are probably best kept as a counter-assault unit here. Their Whipcoils only bring Halberds to I3, so you won't be striking first against the Halberds. You don't want them to get force-weaponed to death, but Wraiths still have a good shot of killing small units they come across.

Deathmarks and a Despairtek can be very good. They are pretty much guaranteed to kill whatever unit they mark, thanks to the large amount of wounds they will pack on. It is a suicide unit, so keep this in mind. I tend to use them more against things like Long-fangs.

I play both Draigowing and Necrons, and I've never beaten Necrons with GK.

Doomsday Arks are golden here. Watch an entire Paladin Squad vanish under that pie plate.

And as it says above, Lanceteks are your friends.

mecra wrote:but Despair is a template. Which means getting close on foot since DS isn't reliable. Or drop from a transport near the unit?

Seems like a lot of wasted models to get Deathmarks (which don't seem all that great) and a Despair Cryp just for his template.

You just need to DS within range. I've never had much trouble doing so.

Puscifer wrote:I play both Draigowing and Necrons, and I've never beaten Necrons with GK.

Doomsday Arks are golden here. Watch an entire Paladin Squad vanish under that pie plate.

And as it says above, Lanceteks are your friends.

I don't bring a Doomsday Ark in my TAC list, is the problem(And I don't think a lot of Necron players do either, with our super competitive Heavy Support Slot) I would have tailored against the GK player, if I did so. Doomsday Arks would be effective at munching through Paladins.

azazel the cat wrote:

mecra wrote:but Despair is a template. Which means getting close on foot since DS isn't reliable. Or drop from a transport near the unit?

Seems like a lot of wasted models to get Deathmarks (which don't seem all that great) and a Despair Cryp just for his template.

You just need to DS within range. I've never had much trouble doing so.

Warp quake isn't a problem for you? I see GKs keeping that up when at range.

mecra wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

mecra wrote:but Despair is a template. Which means getting close on foot since DS isn't reliable. Or drop from a transport near the unit?

Seems like a lot of wasted models to get Deathmarks (which don't seem all that great) and a Despair Cryp just for his template.

You just need to DS within range. I've never had much trouble doing so.

Warp quake isn't a problem for you? I see GKs keeping that up when at range.

A lot of the GK lists I tend to go up against, either have very little, or no Strike squads and Interceptors.

Sasori wrote:

mecra wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

mecra wrote:but Despair is a template. Which means getting close on foot since DS isn't reliable. Or drop from a transport near the unit?

Seems like a lot of wasted models to get Deathmarks (which don't seem all that great) and a Despair Cryp just for his template.

You just need to DS within range. I've never had much trouble doing so.

Warp quake isn't a problem for you? I see GKs keeping that up when at range.

A lot of the GK lists I tend to go up against, either have very little, or no Strike squads and Interceptors.

Pretty much this.

all the GK players that I've come across were unable to fit in any SS or Interceptors, because of all the undercosted units they were cramming in their lists.

Interesting. Well, that's somewhat the opposite here. GKs around this area tend to take a ton of SS and Purifiers. :( Along with the required Dreads and MAYBE a Storm Raven.

How would your compositions change when facing a heavy SS and Puri list?

mecra wrote:Interesting. Well, that's somewhat the opposite here. GKs around this area tend to take a ton of SS and Purifiers. :( Along with the required Dreads and MAYBE a Storm Raven.

How would your compositions change when facing a heavy SS and Puri list?

It wouldn't. Everything I said works just as well. Be thankful that they are taking Strike Squads, instead of more Purifiers or Henchmen spam with Purifiers.

Sasori wrote:
Be wary of searchlights though, and position accordingly.

GK vehicles do not come with searchlights standards. As Gk have a lot of 2, 3, 5 and 10 pt upgrades that are very powerful [grenades, Servo Skulls, Nemesis upgrades], they often will not have the few points left over for searchlights.

If a GK player is using searchlights against you, make sure they paid for them on their list.

Cool info so far.

So do you guys go immortal or warrior spam? I've seen few lists with all troops as Immortals, but they are so much tougher and their weapon is better. However, does not having the Ghost Ark make them not as good as Warriors?

Completely up to you. Both have proven viable, and both have their pros & cons.

Immortals are actually capable of hurting things, and they tend to survive longer with their 3+ save.

Warriors are much cheaper, and being able to create blobs of them is sometimes useful.

I generally like to spend as few points as possible on troops, because I think that both options kinda suck. But that's just my opinion.

svendrex wrote:

Sasori wrote: Be wary of searchlights though, and position accordingly.

GK vehicles do not come with searchlights standards. As Gk have a lot of 2, 3, 5 and 10 pt upgrades that are very powerful [grenades, Servo Skulls, Nemesis upgrades], they often will not have the few points left over for searchlights.

If a GK player is using searchlights against you, make sure they paid for them on their list.

If a GK player fields Coteaz, a standard Psyfleman + Las/Plas Razorback fire base with Purifiers for CC weight, AND they know how to use searchlights, welp, be ready for a long day. I honestly don't think any shooty combo we can field has a chance against a GK player who doesn't make a mistake. And it has to be a pretty big mistake. The problem is always that GK's sitting on a solid fire base, with solid CC backup. This thread might be just a tad Pollyanna.

Randall Turner wrote:If a GK player fields Coteaz, a standard Psyfleman + Las/Plas Razorback fire base with Purifiers for CC weight, AND they know how to use searchlights, welp, be ready for a long day. I honestly don't think any shooty combo we can field has a chance against a GK player who doesn't make a mistake. And it has to be a pretty big mistake. The problem is always that GK's sitting on a solid fire base, with solid CC backup. This thread might be just a tad Pollyanna.

Las/Plas razorbacks are very uncommon from what I have seen of Coteaz Henchmen lists. Ususally people run the HB+Psybolt Ammo combination for massed S6 firepower.


Necrons have a lot of options to out shoot the GK player.


1) GK ado not have a ton of meltaguns usually. AV 13 is harder for them to deal with than some other armies.

Even though henchmen lists can take melta all over the place, Most of the lists I have seen keep the henchmen bare so they can hide in the razorback where it is safe, rather than having to get out and shoot something.

This also means you can close with the GK with more impunity as you are not as worried about close range shooting from meltaguns.




2) Solar Pulse

Again you cannot always assume that the GK player will put even have search lights. They may want another servo skull to block scout moves, more grenades for assault power, or more psy-powers on their librarian.

GK have a lot of ways to full up the last 10 points in their list with useful wargear. Searchlights are mostly an anti-necron thing OR they are their for a specific scenario, they are not an auto--include in all GK lists.




3) Low model count and small unit sizes.

Purifiers are often run in 5 man units or in combat squads. This means the GK player will often have to allocate wounds to the important (read Psycannons) models. You will be able to take out some of the more dangerous firepower before you wipe out entire units.

Also, the low model count in general gives you an advantage in a war of attrition. You get some of your dudes back each phase, while every GK casualty is a big deal.





This is not to say that the necrons will have an easy time, but you can deal with GK if you know what you are doing.

How is AV 13 hard for GK to deal with when they have a ton of S7 rending 4 shot weapons? Those things are better than lascannons.

Kevlar wrote:How is AV 13 hard for GK to deal with when they have a ton of S7 rending 4 shot weapons? Those things are better than lascannons.

And they put out a volume of fire for softer targets, the TL Assault Cannon route is shorter ranged but another viable Razorback variant. Lessee, here, Justin Cook's Adepticon list has two Purifiers, Psyfleman and Razorback contingent...
52x S7 Rending
16x S8 48"

I threw his Venerable Dreadnought into the S8 line there, it's basically an "oops, I ran out of HS slots" Psyfleman anyway. But the point is, guys, we're not outshooting that! Period.

Svendrex, you're saying that if the GK player makes an idiot list (no searchlights) or one that's honed to a razor edge against hordes and their common AV11 opponents (low AP), Necrons have a good shot. I'm saying that's unrealistic. Healtihily optimistic, maybe, but probably not gonna happen. And I don't think AV13 is the way to go, I believe the way to beat GK is with some MTO solution. The bottom line, thought, is that if a GK player puts one half second of thought into how to beat the Necron codex, he'll come up with something we can't beat at all, ever.

I have never played versus Henchmen or Purifier with my necron, but versus Paladins, one of our unit is deadly.

Scarabs. Surround his Land Raider with two units, Land Raider wrecked, he can't disembark or Emergency disembark. 800+ points dead.
Next turn, if he disembark his other unit, just shoot it, if he don't, just repeat.

Versus Purifier, maybe a court with a Ghost Ark would do the job.

Randall Turner wrote: The bottom line, thought, is that if a GK player puts one half second of thought into how to beat the Necron codex, he'll come up with something we can't beat at all, ever.

I think that part of the issue is that Gk have lot of small point wargear options that allow them to tailor their list against certain opponents.


If you know you are going to a tournament that has Night fighting in the mission or has a lot of necron players, then searchlights are of course a good move to make.


However, If you are writing a TAC list [and using the BRB scenarios], I do not think that most GK players put Searchlights as a top priority.
in A Dawn of war game, you will not have much shooting on the first turn anyways [range mostly]
The only codex that can bring its own darkness is necrons.
Otherwise, searchlights are not useful, especially when taking them means you are giving up other things as well.


GK have some of the best options for tailoring their list against their opponents,as they have the most wargear options for the most models. If you are tailoring a list to beat necrons you can just take out all of the halberds [not needed against INT 2] and put in searchlights ect.


==========================================================

Overall the GK meta-game has basically 4 elements.

MSU- henchmen Razorbacks [from what I have seen mostly the S6 HB version or Chimeras, but others are viable]
MSU- Psycannon Spam [Mostly based around Crowe and Purifiers, but can use other units]
Deathstars [Mostly Paladins, though you may see some purifier death stars]
Psy-Rifle Dreads


I think that Necrons can win the shooting war against the Razorback Henchmen and the Deathstars
But
They will loose the shooting war to the Psycannon Spam and the Psy-rifle dreads


What it all boils down to is how much of each of those 4 elements the GK player included in their list, and how much emphasis the GK player put on including some of anti-Necron Wargear in their TAC list.

If the GK player is tailoring a list against Necrons, then the Necrons will have a very hard time, I do agree with you on that.

Svendrex, the only builds that don't include Psyflemen are deathstars. You're lumping henchmen lists into it's own category, henchmen always include a full Psyfleman contingent and usually a couple of Purifiers with Psycannons. With points left over for another nasty unit.

I don't consider spending a handful of points on searchlights as "tailoring" and I wasn't implying that GK will *ever* tailor for Necrons. What I was saying there is that while we have to tailor like madmen just to have a chance, if they do it even a little, it's game over. Not saying they will - saying we're tailoring against an all-comers lists while they're ignoring us.

I think that just by creating the Necron codex, GW has forced GK to spend that handful of points on searchlights. But that's all.

I don't know what the point of this thread is anymore.

svendrex wrote:However, If you are writing a TAC list [and using the BRB scenarios], I do not think that most GK players put Searchlights as a top priority.
in A Dawn of war game, you will not have much shooting on the first turn anyways [range mostly]

This was true before, but meta changed heavily with new Necron codex. Current TAC lists should always include multiple searchlights if they can be taken. I agree that advantage in DoW is quite small but disadvantage against Necron lists is large and it's not really TAC list if you assume you will never encounter Necrons...

svendrex wrote:The only codex that can bring its own darkness is necrons.
Otherwise, searchlights are not useful, especially when taking them means you are giving up other things as well.

Not many things. Searchlights are cheapest upgrade you can find. Considering that you get 5 searchlights for price of dropping single Master-crafted weapon or dozer blade, it shouldn't be hard to find the points for having at least some vehicles fitted.

svendrex wrote:GK have some of the best options for tailoring their list against their opponents,as they have the most wargear options for the most models. If you are tailoring a list to beat necrons you can just take out all of the halberds [not needed against INT 2] and put in searchlights ect.

I agree on general tailoring, but you definitely shouldn't drop Halberds unless you're 100% certain that Necron player doesn't take Wraiths. Striking at I3 beats striking at I1.

Otherwise, I agree with your reasoning. Outshooting Crowe list at 24" is gonna be extremely hard or close to impossible. So one should consider other options, like 6 man wraith squads that will beat 10 man purifier squad any day in CC.

Luide wrote: ...but you definitely shouldn't drop Halberds unless you're 100% certain that Necron player doesn't take Wraiths. Striking at I3 beats striking at I1.

What are you going on about here?

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.

Randall Turner wrote:

Luide wrote: ...but you definitely shouldn't drop Halberds unless you're 100% certain that Necron player doesn't take Wraiths. Striking at I3 beats striking at I1.

What are you going on about here?

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.

The latest FAQ has changed that answer to yes. Halberds will strike before wraiths

Post it for me.

Edit: offs, you're right.

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a
model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear
(e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which
order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: The Whip Coils will reduce an enemy model’s
Initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are applied.
So, a model with Furious Charge that assaults a
Canoptek Wraith with Whip Coils will strike at Initiative
2, a Grey Knight with a Nemesis force halberd will strike
at Initiative 3 and an Eldar with a Banshee Mask will
strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of assault.

Randall Turner wrote:Svendrex, the only builds that don't include Psyflemen are deathstars. You're lumping henchmen lists into it's own category, henchmen always include a full Psyfleman contingent and usually a couple of Purifiers with Psycannons. With points left over for another nasty unit.

I don't consider spending a handful of points on searchlights as "tailoring" and I wasn't implying that GK will *ever* tailor for Necrons. What I was saying there is that while we have to tailor like madmen just to have a chance, if they do it even a little, it's game over. Not saying they will - saying we're tailoring against an all-comers lists while they're ignoring us.

I think that just by creating the Necron codex, GW has forced GK to spend that handful of points on searchlights. But that's all.

I don't know what the point of this thread is anymore.

I don't understand this sentiment. I've never had to tailor, to beat any army. Yes, they are a tough matchup, but they are not the unbeatable Juggernaut you're making them out to be.

Sasori wrote:I don't understand this sentiment. I've never had to tailor, to beat any army. Yes, they are a tough matchup, but they are not the unbeatable Juggernaut you're making them out to be.

Two different things here.

1) Tailoring your army. You do it, we all do it, get rid of the loaded term "tailoring", call it configure to handle expected opponents. Currently many people configure their force to handle AV11 mech, because that's their expected opponent. It's one step in the army building process, you evaluate your expected opponents along with evaluating your most cost effective troops and your unit synergy. Saying you don't do it either means you're using the word differently or you're doing it unconsciously.

2) How tough is GK. Man, I'm getting tired of this. i get the GK guys lobbying for glory or 6th ed. changes, and I get your ego, but you understand what I'm saying. You were making the same points in your discussion with Nosferatu regarding Purifiers - they're simply better than what we have to buy. And the same is true for most of their FOC slots. If you put the restraint on a GK list that it has to succeed in a tournament situation we have a shot - because Necrons don't fit the "expected opponent" profile, while GK does. But - If you just take two guys, sit down with the codecs, and say "let's play!" I dont' think so. We might not lose every game, there are random factors. But saying we're on an even footing is just is not true.

Put it this way - two commanders of equal skill as GK against Necrons for $100 a pop in ten games, betting on GK I'd come out comfortably ahead on the balance sheet at the end of the day. And I honestly think it's unbalanced enough that the commanders don't need to be all that even. Would I change my tune after 10 games? I don't know, i guess it's possible. Be very surprised, though.

Two different things here.

1) Tailoring your army. You do it, we all do it, get rid of the loaded term "tailoring", call it configure to handle expected opponents. Currently many people configure their force to handle AV11 mech, because that's their expected opponent. It's one step in the army building process, you evaluate your expected opponents along with evaluating your most cost effective troops and your unit synergy. Saying you don't do it either means you're using the word differently or you're doing it unconsciously.

I use the term tailoring, to representing configuring your army, for one opponent's army. It is a very specific to that one use, for me. I don't consider making a list, that you use against everyone tailoring.

2) How tough is GK. Man, I'm getting tired of this. i get the GK guys lobbying for glory or 6th ed. changes, and I get your ego, but you understand what I'm saying. You were making the same points in your discussion with Nosferatu regarding Purifiers - they're simply better than what we have to buy. And the same is true for most of their FOC slots. If you put the restraint on a GK list that it has to succeed in a tournament situation we have a shot - because Necrons don't fit the "expected opponent" profile, while GK does. But - If you just take two guys, sit down with the codecs, and say "let's play!" I dont' think so. We might not lose every game, there are random factors. But saying we're on an even footing is just is not true.

Some armies are fundamentally better at tailoring against armies, than others. A good example, is that Necrons can tailor to beat just about any IG list very easy. There are a few other armies that can do this as well. It really has little bearing on the overall balance of the armies in question though. GK however, are probably the strongest army out there, in a TAC point of view. It's not by a huge margin to every army though. Space Wolves, IG, Necrons, and to an extent DE, almost always provide a strong match, when run by an equally skilled general. You seem to have the point of view, that we barely have a chance against GK and none when they tailor for us. This is not the case.

Put it this way - two commanders of equal skill as GK against Necrons for $100 a pop in ten games, betting on GK I'd come out comfortably ahead on the balance sheet at the end of the day. And I honestly think it's unbalanced enough that the commanders don't need to be all that even. Would I change my tune after 10 games? I don't know, i guess it's possible. Be very surprised, though.

I disagree, and don't share this view at all. I stand by my point of view, that Necrons vs GK is a tough match, but is not even close to the extreme you are making it out to be. You sound like you are letting yourself get defeated, before you even play, and that's no way to go about it. There are some matches in 40k, that are extremely one-sided, but this is not one of them. Not even close.

Sasori wrote:

1) Tailoring your army. You do it, we all do it, get rid of the loaded term "tailoring", call it configure to handle expected opponents. Currently many people configure their force to handle AV11 mech, because that's their expected opponent. It's one step in the army building process, you evaluate your expected opponents along with evaluating your most cost effective troops and your unit synergy. Saying you don't do it either means you're using the word differently or you're doing it unconsciously.

I use the term tailoring, to representing configuring your army, for one opponent's army. It is a very specific to that one use, for me. I don't consider making a list, that you use against everyone tailoring.

Configuring your army for one single opponent's army is an extreme case. Configuring your army to deal with a "commonly encountered" opposing force mix is the more common case, and when we both (GK and Necron) do it, Necrons are relatively stronger as a result - because Necrons aren't a "commonly encountered" opposing force mix in any of their various incarnations.

No stress. I think we either need to agree to disagree on this, or figure out a way to gather some empirical data. I wouldn't mind gathering data points, the worst thing that could happen in my view is possibly learning some new tactics for dealing with GK and meeting some new people, though I'm not sure how close to Austin you are. I think we'd need to do it before 6th ed. changes remove some of the GK "fortitude" advantage and/or make transports less viable, CC AT more effective, etc, all of which sound possible.