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So GW can go die now. Another price increase on their already heavily overpriced miniatures for their unbalanced game? Really?

Anyway, I want to start Warmachine and eventually hordes.
I just have a few starting questions:

1) How balanced is the game? Is there any power creep? Any specific broken builds (like an army that is balanced until some sneaky combo is used that makes it too good)?

2) After reading some of the fluff I really want to play Khador to honor my heritage which stems from Mother Vodka...errr I mean Soviet Mother Russia. How good are they? How do they play (i.e. horde vs elite, shooty vs CQC, etc)

3) What would be the best way to start? Are the units in the battlegroup/ 2 player battle box good (by good I mean like good competitively, I prefer to use my money on things that are not trash, and then pick up the fun trash units later when I have some extra cash), or would it be better to start buying from single boxes? If so then which boxes?

4) I should obviously find this out myself, but while I'm already here: What rules should I start with? Is the main book enough, or do I also need the Khador supplement? What about how unit profiles are on cards, those just come with the models right?

Thanks so much in advance to anyone that helps me out!

Welcome to Warmachine, you can leave your ideas on how wargames work at the door.

There are no bad units, there is no power group (Well, between hordes and WM there is, but only a little bit) and the starter boxes are a good deal!

Really, from my limited experience with Khador, they are tanks. Not very fast, but they dish out the pain and take it just was well. They don't skimp on either armor or guns, which means that most of the time you are outnumbered. But you will always have the tools to deal with what you need to fight.

The main rulebook is a good start, it has rules for the basic units of the four main warmachine factions (No retribution and a TINY mercs section) but it is a good starting off point.

Again, welcome to Warmahordes. Where the grass is greener.

Before anything else you need to understand my answers are very general in nature and there is a whole lot of wiggle room to embrace the exceptions.

zeekill wrote: 1) How balanced is the game? Is there any power creep? Any specific broken builds (like an army that is balanced until some sneaky combo is used that makes it too good)?

Very good. The army updates are simultaneous so there is no codex creep. You will hear a few complaints about factions being over/underpowered time to time, but the scale is microscopic compared to what your used to. I believe the warmachine and hordes mk2 books are two of the best rulebooks to ever be printed for a wargame.The thing is, they are all filled with sneaky combos and going toe-to-toe with no gocha moments built in to a list is a rarity.

zeekill wrote: 2) After reading some of the fluff I really want to play Khador to honor my heritage which stems from Mother Vodka...errr I mean Soviet Mother Russia. How good are they? How do they play (i.e. horde vs elite, shooty vs CQC, etc)

Khador always goes BIG. If they want to shoot they get a mortar or some snipers instead of other puny guns. If they want to be sneaky, they don't just advance deploy, they come in from the side of the board. And they do love heavy application of axe to face.
Competitive khador builds are usually infantry heavy with their casters only able to efficiently run one or two jacks. Character jacks are heavily relied on for extra punch for the focus invested. They are generally slow but there are a few ways to get some explosive speed boosts or tie up the foe to help you get the charge. There are a lot of variations you can play though, Karchev runs a wall of jacks, the butcher pushes damage rolls to new heights, Irusk makes infantry stalwart protectors of the motherland, and Prince Vlad makes solos into superheroes.

zeekill wrote: 3) What would be the best way to start? Are the units in the battlegroup/ 2 player battle box good (by good I mean like good competitively, I prefer to use my money on things that are not trash, and then pick up the fun trash units later when I have some extra cash), or would it be better to start buying from single boxes? If so then which boxes?

The two player starter provides a heck of a value and even the battlebox is a good deal. The jacks in it are basic jacks that might not be used as often later on, but they are solid for their points. If you are really hesitant about taking things that are too bland get yourself a Black Ivan(metal character jack parts that go with an unassembled plastic jack) upgrade blister for the destroyer, he's a solid upgrade for only one more point. By the time you are comfortable with battlebox and 20 point games from the starer, you will know what you like a bit more and come back for more advice -don't jump in to this game at the deep end, there is a lot more to it than you may expect.

zeekill wrote: 4) I should obviously find this out myself, but while I'm already here: What rules should I start with? Is the main book enough, or do I also need the Khador supplement? What about how unit profiles are on cards, those just come with the models right?

The prime mk.2 book or mini-rulebook in the 2 player starter and cards that come with the models are all you need to play the game. The faction book has a collection of background and rules for most of the models in the faction(the models not in the force books are in the wrath or upcoming colossals expansions). The faction book is nice to have for making a shopping list or crafting a wild, new list, but you will not use it during the game.

Happygrunt wrote:Welcome to Warmachine, you can leave your ideas on how wargames work at the door.

Haha, sorry, I've kinda had a bad taste in my mouth from GW games from the past 3 years....

Thanks to both of you

zeekill wrote: ...

Anyway, I want to start Warmachine and eventually hordes.
I just have a few starting questions:

Welcome aboard. Hope you find a good experience playing the game.

zeekill wrote:1) How balanced is the game? Is there any power creep? Any specific broken builds (like an army that is balanced until some sneaky combo is used that makes it too good)?

Currently the game is considered fairly balanced. There are some tournament trends hinting much to this, with all factions having won major tournaments, or at least being represented in top rankings. There is some debate on the relation some factions have specifically, but any gap right now is more or less able to be overcome with player skill.

The game is fairly recently in its second edition (January 2010 is when it cam eout), and the general perception is anything over-powered right now seems to be from the conversion-over more than anything. Within factions there is some debate on power balance, but this leads to prevalant list builds more than full out power-creep, or over-goodness.

zeekill wrote:2) After reading some of the fluff I really want to play Khador to honor my heritage which stems from Mother Vodka...errr I mean Soviet Mother Russia. How good are they? How do they play (i.e. horde vs elite, shooty vs CQC, etc)

Khador tends towards lots of infantry with some combined arms stuff. They are, to me, a "raw stats" faction, having lots of very hard to kill things that hit very hard and fairly accurately. They tend to have strong warcasters, with good lists, but do not support warjacks beyond one or two token armor-crackers especially well (acceptions exist). Their ranged game tends towards template-based carpet bombing. Their solos and character models are strong, and fairly durable. The faction is pretty low on a whole at magic support.

So that's the summary really. They have some very good casters, and very good models. They tend towards more troops than heavy warjacks. And have good stats. Not very "tricksy" an army most of the time, but their straight-forwardness has a bit of inevitabiltiy and trying ot just do damage control to survive.

zeekill wrote:3) What would be the best way to start? Are the units in the battlegroup/ 2 player battle box good (by good I mean like good competitively, I prefer to use my money on things that are not trash, and then pick up the fun trash units later when I have some extra cash), or would it be better to start buying from single boxes? If so then which boxes?

The battlebox isn't bad, it is actually an extremely good deal if you can split it with a friend, as you in effect get a bunch fo stuff for free with it (it's extremely aggressively costed). That said, the current Summer Sale bundle on PP's site is also a very good deal, coming with the Winterguard stuff staple to many casters in the game, and the same battlebox stuff. Folks have mixed opinions on the warjacks, but the Destroyer can be turned into Black Ivan very easily with an upgrade kit, and the Juggernaught is as good filler a warjack as they come. I say look this deal up.

zeekill wrote:4) I should obviously find this out myself, but while I'm already here: What rules should I start with? Is the main book enough, or do I also need the Khador supplement? What about how unit profiles are on cards, those just come with the models right?

The Khador book simply collects all the models from MkI (the first edition of the game) into one book, along with a few new models, and the optional Themed Forces (which kind of are not worth worrying too uch about for now). It has all models currently available for Khador save those printed in Wrath and the forthcoming Colossals book. That being said, as you note, units come with cards that have all theri rules. The Forces books are purely optional, as a means to compile things together really.

zeekill wrote:Thanks so much in advance to anyone that helps me out!

Hope this helped.

And stuff.

You may also want to read this (it is stickied on the top of the page):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Khador

Lots of good answers here, i feel like i don't much to add.... but i will anyway.
I'd say get a forcebook, if only just for the ability to plan forces on the bogger without worrying about dropping one(a card) into the toilet bowl!

One more thing, how are armies usually built (either in general or army specific) at an average amount of points?

Like "X army take 1 heavy Jack, 2 Light Jacks and 3 units..."
Something like that.

zeekill wrote:One more thing, how are armies usually built (either in general of army specific) at an average amount of points?

Like "X army take 1 heavy Jack, 2 Light Jacks and 3 units..."
Something like that.

It depends on a lot. Player preferance, Warguy choice, faction choice, game choice.

Some players/Warguys/faction combination want more 'jacks, some want less, some want more infantry, some want less.

You'll generally (and this is an extremely broad brush) see more Warbeasts in Hordes forces than you will see 'Jacks in Warmachine forces. This is because Warbeasts are necessary for Warlocks to keep generating Fury. Warcasters, on the other hand, produce their own Focus, so they generally want to keep it to themselves. It's also why Focus-efficient 'jacks (those that can run/charge/do other things for free, or even produce their own Focus) are always popular.

Each warcaster is given X extra points to go towards warjacks, and only warjacks. From there you spend your points however you like, only limited to specific unit's/solo's Force Allowance (FA). Some units have a FA of 1, meaning you can only take one unit of them per warcaster in your army, which in and of itself is one caster most of the time. You can take as many non-character warjacks as you want. So in a 15pt game (good size for starting out. lots of fun that doesn't take too long and you can still learn) you will get 5-7 extra points for warjacks, which gets you 1 jack, and then say 2-3 more jacks if you wish. Warmachine is very loose as to what you take in your list.

zeekill wrote:One more thing, how are armies usually built (either in general of army specific) at an average amount of points?

Like "X army take 1 heavy Jack, 2 Light Jacks and 3 units..."
Something like that.

you dont.

remember those years you played 40k? Well, take everything you think you know about wargaming and building armies, and forget it. this is not 40k. you know how Guard are built like this, and SPace Wolves are all built like that? you know all those near identical lists out there? If i were to ask on a 40k forum about starting a guard army, and ask what i need i'll be told about half a dozen builds - leafblower meltavet spam, twin hydras etc. and thats it. i ask about space marines and i'll be told "this is how you do it".

And thinking like a 40k player, here you are asking how armies (Khador in your case) are buit. Simple answer is "With red stuff". unless you like mercs, and if thats the case throw them in as well. Truly, there is no "the khador list" in this game. it doesnt exist. everything has a hard counter. there is no perfect unit, list, or strategy. there is no "the right way" to build a list. some casters favour jack heavy. some favour infantry and a single jack. some like cavalry, others ranged. What is important is synnergy between what you take, rather than what you take specifically. everything can be built into an effective, winning strategy, but just like a jigsaw, not all the pieces go everywhere and work as well all the time. Take Karchev the terrible for example. He's whats referred to as a "jack caster". his spells and feat buff jacks stupidly well, but he offers nothing to infantry. Irusk is the exact opposite. his spell list for the most part, and his feat are all about buffing infantry. Now if you take infantry with karchec and jacks with irusk, you're not getting the best out of each. Now in terms of the jacks that Karchev can bring, there is no right way. everything provides different synnergies and options. do you want a "gunboat list"? or a powerslide alphastrike list? *shrug*. With Irusk do you want ranged or melee? alpha strike or attrition? assault kommandos. doom reavers. iron fangs. Winter guard. Nyss Hunters. Boomhowlers. *shrug* see where im getting at?

Deadnight wrote:

zeekill wrote:One more thing, how are armies usually built (either in general of army specific) at an average amount of points?

Like "X army take 1 heavy Jack, 2 Light Jacks and 3 units..."
Something like that.

you dont.

remember those years you played 40k? Well, take everything you think you know about wargaming and building armies, and forget it. this is not 40k. you know how Guard are built like this, and SPace Wolves are all built like that? you know all those near identical lists out there? If i were to ask on a 40k forum about starting a guard army, and ask what i need i'll be told about half a dozen builds - leafblower meltavet spam, twin hydras etc. and thats it. i ask about space marines and i'll be told "this is how you do it".

And thinking like a 40k player, here you are asking how armies (Khador in your case) are buit. Simple answer is "With red stuff". unless you like mercs, and if thats the case throw them in as well. Truly, there is no "the khador list" in this game. it doesnt exist. everything has a hard counter. there is no perfect unit, list, or strategy. there is no "the right way" to build a list. some casters favour jack heavy. some favour infantry and a single jack. some like cavalry, others ranged. What is important is synnergy between what you take, rather than what you take specifically. everything can be built into an effective, winning strategy, but just like a jigsaw, not all the pieces go everywhere and work as well all the time. Take Karchev the terrible for example. He's whats referred to as a "jack caster". his spells and feat buff jacks stupidly well, but he offers nothing to infantry. Irusk is the exact opposite. his spell list for the most part, and his feat are all about buffing infantry. Now if you take infantry with karchec and jacks with irusk, you're not getting the best out of each. Now in terms of the jacks that Karchev can bring, there is no right way. everything provides different synnergies and options. do you want a "gunboat list"? or a powerslide alphastrike list? *shrug*. With Irusk do you want ranged or melee? alpha strike or attrition? assault kommandos. doom reavers. iron fangs. Winter guard. Nyss Hunters. Boomhowlers. *shrug* see where im getting at?

Sir, you just made my day.
However, not that I don't trust you, just because I'm naturally over-cautious, are you a competitive player, or one of those "hey man everything is super balanced lets go hug in the sunlight because there's no way GW would do something so terrible to make an unbalanced GK book!" people?

zeekill wrote:

Sir, you just made my day.
However, not that I don't trust you, just because I'm naturally over-cautious, are you a competitive player, or one of those "hey man everything is super balanced lets go hug in the sunlight because there's no way GW would do something so terrible to make an unbalanced GK book!" people?

competitive. and i've done quite well in our scottish tourneys. no firsts, but a fair few seconds and thirds. missed the UK masters though *grumble*

shockingly, its OK to play hard, to bring your A game and to go for the throat. Its a hallmark of the game.

to be honest though, while i know the intent of what you're asking, i think there is more than a little bit of 40k thinking chucked into what you're asking - namely this idea of two camps of "competitive", and "fluffy". why cant you be both? you need to understand something here. competitive play gets dumped on a lot by large segments of the player base in GW games. And i can see why. 40k and fantasy are very very unbalanced games. as i mentioned above there are the "the lists". there are those grade A optimal units. spam them, and go against someone who takes a bit of this and a bit of that. steamrolled. hence the view that competitive gaming is "bad". but honestly, its a view that is only seen through the lens of GW gaming, as it is so horribly unbalanced. try warmachine. that DEF17 winter guard deathstar with its 8" sprays, rockets and CRAs. brutal as hell. and one of the best units in the game. *shrug* walk up a bile thrall, purge and wipe out the whole unit. "Competitive" means something completely different in a game where essentially, everything can and will kill everything else. you'll be surprised at the sense of freedom you'll feel when you get into it.

Like you said, in some GW communities (including a portion of mine) competitive play is a sin and everyone must play fluffy, "fun" (i hate that term, implying that competitive people don't play for fun but rather to just make people cry, which is completely untrue of every competitive player I know) armies.

Then again, if what you say is true, I'm happy to join the community of a balanced game. Thanks for all the help.

Now I just need to get the book and decide what to buy >.<

EDIT:
Friend just came over with his rulebook. I flip to page 5 and immediately fall in love with privateer press.

GW "Most Important Rule" : Be nice, play nice, have fun kids! Don't forget that when our shoddy rules writing gives you issue, to handle it in the way that is "most fun!"

PP "Page 5 Rule" : Play hard, Build Hard, Win Hard, find the best opponents, and be the best you can be. Just don't be a jack*** about it.

I think Deadnight is spot on. I just started Warmachine myself and explored for a bit, with a lot of good advice from people at my LGS. I am still learning new things about it every game, and I think this will continue for at least a year, even if I play several games every week.

Warmachine really cannot be described in GW terms. There is just no way to play this game non-competitively. Winning isn't a matter of bringing the better list. You can simply take what you like the look or fluff of, and then win by skill, even against someone who brought a finely tuned list. You will also realise that one of the most enjoyable things about this game is finding synergies and using them. So once you buy Irusk, you'll realise just how awesome he can be with a few units of infantry - and you'll just simply want to try it out.

Warmachine is all about synergies, activation timing and taking the good risks instead of the bad risks. Games usually end by caster kill, not by objectives - those are more of a motivation to not linger in the deployment zones too long.

I had a game vs. a friend yesterday, and he was trashing me profoundly, until he made the mistake of putting his caster only about 5 inches behind one of his jacks on the front line. He was still out of LoS of any place any of my models could have gone in my turn, but I had a jack with a spray weapon (think 40K flamer), so I moved it in such a way that the spray could just, by a few millimetres, hit his caster behind the jack (by aiming at the jack without having LoS to the caster). The hit brought the caster down to three hit points and set him on fire. I had rolled quite well, but more importantly, on his next turn, he had to check whether the fire went out or not. It didn't and it killed her. I won. Yay!

So for me this illustrates how a minor mistake - and it really was just a single oversight (one he'll never allow again... teehee ) that suddenly turned the game around completely. He even had his snipers on their way to set up firing position on my caster, and there wasn't a lot I could do to stop them - I could run, but I couldn't hide.

And yeah, Page 5 was what made me love PP instantly, too. If there is anything to say about balance issues in Warmachine, it is that the whole game is overpowered. That way, taking an axe to the face repeatedly all the time is almost as much fun as wielding it.

The above post is what i like best about warmachine. The ability to use tactics to achieve your ends and also how a small oversight can cost you a game. It is also why i get annoyed when 40k players talk about "combos" in warmachine.It isn't combos' it's called tactics, just because 40k is almost without them doen't mean that tactics are "bad".

and yes i played 40k.

Bullockist wrote:The above post is what i like best about warmachine. The ability to use tactics to achieve your ends and also how a small oversight can cost you a game. It is also why i get annoyed when 40k players talk about "combos" in warmachine.It isn't combos' it's called tactics, just because 40k is almost without them doen't mean that tactics are "bad".

and yes i played 40k.

I call it combos, too, I just don't associate anything negative with that word. To me, the game still feels a bit like a complex martial arts fight from a classic kung fu movie, both sides weaving, evading and blocking all the time while at the same time trying to set up a trap the enemy cannot avoid. And then, some time into the game, one of them suddenly gets through and combo-punches the other guy into utter oblivion, left-right-uppercut-kicktothegroin-elbowtotheskull-enemydropsdead - only in WM, it's more like Ice Axe-OpenFist-IceAxeToFace-IceAxeToFace-IceAxeToFace, desintegrate...

I think Warmahordes has a lot of fun things about it.

The games use less models but they dont ever feel small.

Because theres fewer models they are able to give you more options and make the gameplay more interesting.

You do need to learn to think round corners and in someways a few activations ahead.

You will be caught out to start off with special rules certain models have but thats part of the fun.

One of the most fun games I had against my friend, we both still talk about it as it demonstrates how the game can go even if it cost my friend the game.

I had 3 Heavy warjacks bearing down on his warcaster and he wouldn't be able to stop them all or so I thought.

However he casts a spell called voltaic snare which basically turns one jack into a giant magnet and the other jacks are pulled towards to it so wouldn't be able get at his caster, so this nutralised my 3 jacks (or so it seemed).

So it swings back to my turn and i was stuck and couldn't see how to get away from this. However after some thought i activated one of the jacks that was being pulled towards the jack hit by the snare.

Then my jack grabbed the snared jack and threw it at his warcaster. This then hit the enemy caster throwing him to the ground and wounding him.

This left my final jack free to charge the caster before he could get up. My jack then sliced him up.

You just dont get that with 40k!

No, you're right you don't. I bet the look on your mates face was priceless. I can hear your warjack yelling " take this jack and shove it, i aint snaring them no more" as he pelted the warcaster with the jack.

Fun times with warmachine. Throwing a your own jack into an enemies face.
Fun times with 40k. Rolling 40 dice at once!
Hearing people talk about tactics in 40k ...Priceless.