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Hey guys, I'm new here and I had a little question fluff wise:

Between taus being "linked" to the ethereals, and command to any order given by one; and the necrons losing (partially) their "soul" and commanding to an overlord, who do you think has the most chance of deffying one's command; although we both know this chance is close to 0%, but still who do you think would be more able?

Now necron warriors are mere machines, so let's take a chalenge between: Tau shas'la (firewarrior) and a necron immortal.

Necron Warriors (the vast bulk of the Necron populace) are nearly utterly mindless, and are incapable of independent thought or free-will action. A Necron Warrior is utterly incapable of disobedience or defying their Lord.

Fire Warrior, obviously. Hint: The Tau have ranks. A shas'la can eventually rise up the ladder (and become shas'o, eventually) through experience and displays of competence and initiative. Being devout followers of a fanatical doctrine doesn't hamper their ability to reason and think by themselves (within some limits, of course).

That can't be said of necrons, where your roles (and, heck, even your cognitive abilities) are defined by... well, by how was your chassis built.

Tau are more free. Without the presence of Ethereals, they will revert to their natural state and rebel. Like he said, the Necron warriors are mostly mindless, and wouldn't know how to be free or what to do.

Lower tier Necrons are literally programmed, and rival Lords can even reprogram the loyalty of Warriors of their conquered foe. So they don't have much in the way of free will, the lower tier ones at least.

Tau are still sentient and sapient and you got Farsight who pretty much rebelled.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Tau are more free. Without the presence of Ethereals, they will revert to their natural state and rebel. Like he said, the Necron warriors are mostly mindless, and wouldn't know how to be free or what to do.

They do not necessarily rebell. Flamewing is a fine example of how Firewarriors, even in their "natural" state, can choose to adhere to the Greater Good.

Here's a question for you: are you truly not free if your entire cognitive realm tells you you are?

As a comparison, the Necron Warrior is not a truly sentient being, but if his all gives him cognitively infinite choice in his actions, would that not be free? And take most evolved creatures, even humans, are they un-free because of, for example, their reproductive urge?
Or for that matter, a tau has knowledge and is able to rationalize about beings with far greater mode of transportation, creatures not slaved to gravity or capable of extensive submersions, while a Necron Warrior is not capable of this knowledge - which of the two is more free, the one who knows of his limitations and inevitable shortcomings or the one capable of being content without such knowledge?

Or am I just committing attempted philosophy?

I wouldn't call the chance of a Tau to become a terrorist, fighting a peaceful society almost all citizens are happy with, a measure of freedom. Actually many people voluntarily live in a peaceful society, shocking I know

Mahtamori wrote:Here's a question for you: are you truly not free if your entire cognitive realm tells you you are?

As a comparison, the Necron Warrior is not a truly sentient being, but if his all gives him cognitively infinite choice in his actions, would that not be free? And take most evolved creatures, even humans, are they un-free because of, for example, their reproductive urge?
Or for that matter, a tau has knowledge and is able to rationalize about beings with far greater mode of transportation, creatures not slaved to gravity or capable of extensive submersions, while a Necron Warrior is not capable of this knowledge - which of the two is more free, the one who knows of his limitations and inevitable shortcomings or the one capable of being content without such knowledge?

Or am I just committing attempted philosophy?

It's a valid philosophic query, but in this instance you are using it in a way that obfuscates rather than clarifies and enlightens.

The OP's intended question was clear. He asked the question in general terms (which is more free) and then clarified (which is more likely to be able to defy orders, e.g. most able to make choices free of the influence of the will of others).

There are certainly any number of philosophic discussions about which form of "freedom" are the best. But the question was about which was the most free to make decisions against the will of their superiors.

Answering that question: it depends on the cast, but overall, obviously the Tau.

I would argue that overall the Necron Phaeron, Lords, and Crypteks are the MOST free. They have the most power to make choices based on their will and without exterior influences such as command, hunger, sex drive, social pressures, fear of death, etc. While they certainly DO have influences driving them (the compulsions left by the Silent King), they are miniscule compared to the compulsions any organic race must face. Of all the races save perhaps daemons, the Lords and Crypteks of the Necrons are free to choose.

Not only do they have phenomenal power to choose in accordance to their will, they have a magnificent breadth of choices available. They are masters of the physical universe, and have more options available to them than any other beings save perhaps the Daemons. They are free to choose not only between left and right, but life and death, here and there. To destroy a star or start af arm.

But that is only true for the lords and crypteks. Any other Necron is tied to their lords will. Overall any given Tau is going to be more free than any of the non-noble Necron.

That being said, there may well be more Necron Nobility in the galaxy than Tau.

So the answer is, again, it depends.

The Necron Warrior is not even capable of knowing his/her own name, and while some may argue that to be free of identity is the greatest of freedoms, they don't have a choice in this matter. They are, literally, programmed to obey, to the best of their abilities, any order given them by their Lord.

It bears noting that Necron Warriors were once the philosophers of the Necrontyr... apparently, their culture didn't like them very much.

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't call the chance of a Tau to become a terrorist, fighting a peaceful society almost all citizens are happy with, a measure of freedom. Actually many people voluntarily live in a peaceful society, shocking I know

Peace is a lie - Humanity will never be free of war. This isn't just in 40k, it's a truth in reality as well. It is our gift and our curse, our nature that cannot and must not be rejected.

Tau necrons are metal ghost zombies from future Japan/Egypt

The necrons have a hierarchy in place that puts certain individuals (the Lords) in positions of sentience nad power for a relative few, while the vast majority are little more than near-mindless space undead (or at least enslaved Space Undead.)

The tau may impose certain restrictions upon you For the Greater Good (and more than likely to change For The Greater Good as needed), but you still have at least some choice in things on top of probably being treated better than you are as a Necron (or for the vast majority of the Imperium, at least from the standpoint of security and well being.)

Personally I've become more a fan of the Craftworld Eldar lifestyle.

Tau have a rough faction to themselves. Therefore Tau have an option of more independent thinking. The majority of Necrons, not so much.

A rough faction? As in, abrasive? I'm confused.


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Oh, ROGUE faction.


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(Perhaps they have a rouge faction as well? Wears red makeup!)

DemetriDominov wrote:Tau have a rough faction to themselves. Therefore Tau have an option of more independent thinking. The majority of Necrons, not so much.

You mean the Farsight enclaves? Was that a matter of everyone deciding for themselves they wanted to strike out on their own and be all independent and freethinking, or them following their Heroic Leader whom they idolized and followed. I'm pretty sure fire Warriors and such are traind/conditioned to respect a chain of command and leadership of those proven to 'deserve it' in order to further the cause of unity and the Greater Good? That wouldn't be much different form a Necron leader deciding for his 'dynasty' what was best and acting in that interest.

A better example probably would be how the Necrons vs the tau treat other races. (hmm the same could apply to the Imperium as well. Never thought of that before.

Necron warriors are incapable of defiance, while higher necrons are capable - take Trazyn for example - he is practically hated by the other dynasties, and he is free to do as he choooses. Even crypteks are subject to rebellion - in Fall of Damnos, Ankh the Architect practically kills another lord and designs futures to kill even other necrons.

Which is why oldcrons were way better than newcrons.

Tau have far more freedom than the Necrons do. Necrons are permanently stuck in their rank. They have no means of ever going up or down in rank.

I think in this discussion it might be important to distinguish between rank and file Necrons and Necron Nobility. They are practically two different species at this point.

Obviously the Tau beat out rank and file Necrons, but I think Necron Nobility largely beats out Tau.

BrotherGnaeus wrote:Tau necrons are metal ghost zombies from future Japan/Egypt

Oh man, that got me. Well done.

Now, this is just my opinion, based on the fluff that I've read, but when it comes to personal choice, I think the Necrons (as a racial whole) have more free will. While, granted, the Warriors and Immortals are completely mindless, many of the higher ranks have some form of free will, which gets greater the higher you go in rank.

Based on what I've seen from the Tau background, my personal opinion is that they don't actually have free will, just a sophisticated approximation of it (which is why they don't really have feelings, and therefore no real Warp presence). Only the Ethereals have free will.

I'm pretty sure there's more Necrons with some degree of free will than there is members of the Ethereal Caste.

That's just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.

Lets throw a spanner in the works.

The Tau are compelled to follow every order an etherial gives them, however they are given a wide freedom in how to complete those orders.

Necron warriors are almost completely soulless machines. However the codex does hint at a degree of their former lives existing as a kind of instinct, which is the GW explanation why they are not fearless.

Hence if something sufficiently horrifying attacks them, they turn and flee. This would imply that the control over the warriors is not as complete as it should be. They are for the most part machines, but that small glimmer of their former existence allows them to disobey an order in favour of self preservation. Of course when the overriding impulses fade the machine like control returns.

Of course even with that small glimmer of independence, I am still inclined to think the Tau have a higher degree of freedom. The etherials don't so much mind control / psychically dominate the other tau as much as they subtly influence their feelings.

A tau in the presence of an etheial is not forcefully compelled to follow the orders, but is more unnaturally encouraged to believe that everything the ethereal says is the best course of action. Think of it like lowering someones normal resistance to suggestion. If you lower it enough, being told to kill yourself sounds like a great idea from someone you think is a really swell guy.

This allows for the Taus autonomy away from the etherials. The changing of their perceptions that they experienced around them will remain and so they will continue to act in a way coinciding with the etherials instruction, but will not be rigidly bound to it. They will just think that the etherials order is the best thing for them to do.

Yes, we get that warriors, and to a lesser extent immortals aren't free. I don't think that is even worth discussing. It's like discussing if servitors are more free than tau. Obviously not.

I really feel like this is an apples and oranges discussion.Necrons aren't a race or like individuals it this point. There is little point in discussing Necrons as though they were a single species, at least when discussing psychology.

On a sidenote, did GW actually ever write anything specific about the Ethereals' influence? Last time I checked, there was nothing about manipulation in the studio material - and as far as I recall, only the outsourced publications contradicted each other with statements regarding this, with the book that started this also trying to tell me that Tau have feet instead of hooves... Some book from the Deathwatch RPG actually parodied it by telling how the guys doing the autopsy on some captured Ethereal complained they couldn't find anything remotely resembling the organ mentioned in "Xenology".

I actually like the pheromone idea (though I'm somewhat on the fence about it since it deminishes the influence of propaganda and communal spirit alone in favour of cliché mind control), but I've honestly never seen anything from GW about it, only ideas from various licensed products.

Necrons rule anyways...

How the Ethereals "control" the rest of the Tau civilization remains in the region of Imperial belief, propaganda and supposition. There's yet to be an out-of-universe explanation as to how the Tau and the Ethereals function.

Personally, I'm one to think that there's no tricks involved, the Tau just really, really like the Greater Good idea and don't need to be coerced into supporting it. Though that really doesn't explain the Vespid helmet thing...

There are indications SOMETHING is going on though. The way the Etherials effortlessly united an entire world of warlike clans who instantly forgot about generations of hatred and war, and did it without incident is suspicious to the point that claiming there is NOTHING going on seems more than a little silly.

Psienesis wrote:How the Ethereals "control" the rest of the Tau civilization remains in the region of Imperial belief, propaganda and supposition. There's yet to be an out-of-universe explanation as to how the Tau and the Ethereals function.

Personally, I'm one to think that there's no tricks involved, the Tau just really, really like the Greater Good idea and don't need to be coerced into supporting it. Though that really doesn't explain the Vespid helmet thing...

A 180-degree turn in personality for an entire civilization will raise eyebrows even from lowly hab-dwellers.

riplikash wrote:There are indications SOMETHING is going on though. The way the Etherials effortlessly united an entire world of warlike clans who instantly forgot about generations of hatred and war, and did it without incident is suspicious to the point that claiming there is NOTHING going on seems more than a little silly.

There are lots of stories about leaders uniting warlike clans or an entire civilization doing a 180. No guarantee that anything supernatural is going on. The suspicious thing is how they showed up out of nowhere just at the time. I mean how did they even make it into the city well it was under siege?