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Ok Dakka,
I present to you with the most underused tactic ever. the tank shock massacre. if a moral test is passed after a tank shock, the models must move in the SHORTEST possible distance away from the tank.

so |-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|


thats a tank right there.

and it shocks a unit



so |-0----| |----0-| figure (1)
|---0--| |--0--|
|--0--| |--0---|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|

0 0 0 0
so |-----| |-----|
0 |-----| |-----| 0
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
Now that is not very massacre-ish is it? you must be thinking "i do not yet know where he is going." well lets think about two tanks.


so Figure (2)

-----------------------

|-0----| |----0-| figure (1)
|---0--| |--0--|
|--0--| |--0---|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|

-----------------------
x x x x
|-----| |-----|
0 |-----| |-----| 0
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|
|-----| |-----|

we all know that models must maintain a one inch bubble around enemy units. (i hope) the X's end up in illegal positions and are thus destroyed.

now that's all well and good but it requires two tanks...right? WRONG you can use your units to form a wall and force models into it. you can use tightly bunched friendlies to do the same. the uses are endless.

Your are Welcome!

~Thrawn

Actually, there is a precedent in FAQ against this.

Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of the board if that is the shortest distance to get out from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also keeps them on the board.

Situation where unit would be partially or completely forced to move over board edge (models cannot be legally placed) is analogous to any other situation where models can not be legally placed and thus it's easy to argue that the models have to be moved the shortest distance possible that keeps them in legal position.

It's not clear cut thing for either direction though, GW rules writers being GW rules writers.

I would argue against that.

The simple reason is that if it could be done off of a board edge it would be over the top powerful. as if even one model leaves the unit is out.

I believe that this tactic is the Rules as Intended tactical application of tank shock. It makes perfect logical sense, a squad is diving out of the way to make room for a tank and there is no room they are crushed underneath the treads.

I was taught this tactic by a friend of mine who was playing in a local GT. While they ruled that is how it should be run.

If I recall correctly, the rules of tank shock say you have to move the models the shortest distance while still keeping them in coherency. You cannot tank shock units out of coherency. Can someone quote the brb? (at work, not handy)

Any time you move a unit, it must remain in coherency. The only time you're given permission to break coherency I am aware of is when taking casualties. As such, the shortest POSSIBLE distance to move away is precisely the one which keeps you in coherency at the end of it.

I do not argue that fact, though i will admit that my diagram is bad.

It is not forcing units out of coherancy, but squishing a few models out of space to be place and thus are destroyed.

I have done this with the BRB on the table. It takes a level of finesse to move units or pick the perfect angle with which to shock. I can assure you it works.


i assure you the once in bubble around 2 rhinos can take up a lot of space on the board.

Perhaps it is the diagram then, but I honestly can't figure out how this works. I mean, if the shortest possible location to move isn't a valid place to move, then it's not the shortest possible place to move. I don't get how you can squish models this way.

Can you take some pictures or maybe mspaint a diagram showing the concept a little better? I'm definitely interested in what you're trying to say, if a little skeptical.

This is a poorly executed one.

But should be simple enough to understand.

grey are nearby units, white is unit being shocked red are tanks, and lastly green is the one in bubble around the hull.

in this example you would destroy 2 maybe 4 depending on coherency.

one last edit. If i recall the BRB does not state that the models must be moved to safety, just moved the shortest distance.

Okay, I think I see what you're saying, but I don't think this works because of the order of operations. We will find out though. I note that in your diagram, it looks like both tanks have the unit within their 1" bubble. Which tank actually did the shocking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, nevermind. Just checked the rules to put this to bed.

Page 68 wrote:If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up
underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position
(it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back
or not), these models must be moved out of the way
by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between
them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency

No provisions for if they can't maintain coherency, so I assume that you must try to if you can. Given that page 11 then says that you can't even attempt to move some place that is occupied by an enemy model or within 1" of one, I do not think that getting squished by the other tank is an option, even as an involuntary one. That would be like me trying to claim I could fzorgle your Marines into the side of my Rhino and that they were destroyed as a result. It's not a valid move, so you can't force it.

In that most recent pic, those 7 models could form a chain around the rear of the shocking tank to keep coherency.

And where's your rules basis for out of coherency == destroyed?

Out of coherency =/= destroyed

if there is no room for the models then they can not be moved and are removed.

you can not move a model through the space occupied by a friendly unit, or within one inch of an enemy model.

If you look at the top diagram, you will find two models in the unit that is being tank shocked do not need to be moved, and thus can not be, while 5 models in-fact do need to be moved. it is impossible to keep them in coherency AND out from under the tank. SO in fact I HAVE forced more models into an area than can fit.

In every other situation in 40k in which a unit can not be placed onto the table in full it is destroyed. There is no course of action in the FAQ or Rulebook (having just re-read both, yes the whole rulebook)

I think it is time to put this to "You Make Da Call" and send an email to games workshop

Why would they not just be shunted to the closest places that are valid places to put models, i.e. per your diagram, down and to the left/right respective of which side the models in question are closest to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We seem to have this fundamental difference in opinion on whether invalid locations for models to exist even constitute as 'moving the shortest distance possible'.

Ok for a second please consider this,
There are no valid places left! shortest or not!

what happens to those models?

If you look at that diagram, and move those pieces one at a time without breaking coherency it becomes more evident where a situation could arise from that yields no valid locations with which to move too! especially as the top two models can not be moved as they are not forced out of the way of the tank shock!

Do not forget that the grey markers are in fact two different units from the white markers.

Okay, so there are three units then at work, "Grey Unit 1", "Grey Unit 2", and "White Unit 1"?

Yes
Also this image is not be best for "if you can pull it off" its a 5 min MS paint drawing.

You will find in real life you can pull it off really well. especially with a prior tank shock to force the models together.

also if you go to You make Da call i posted what is essentially the same letter I sent to games workshop customer service. though i thanked them profusely for there time.

You can never kill a model via tank-shock, there simply is no rule for that. If there is absolutely no place to go for the unit, you simply may not continue your tank-shock.

Jidmah wrote:You can never kill a model via tank-shock, there simply is no rule for that. If there is absolutely no place to go for the unit, you simply may not continue your tank-shock.

what if you have a unit sandwiched between 3 tanks forming a U shape with the unit in the middle of the U, and a 4th tank comes in from the top? the models have nowhere to go since non-destroyed vehicles are treated as impassible terrain. ...think mortar & pestle...

That is not a rule.

No rule ever destroys a unit for every being in impassible terrain. Quite the opposite, since the unit you are tank-shocking is impassible terrain too, so you may not move to where it is if it can't get out of the way.

There is no rule in the book that allows you to remove enemy models simply because you force them in a place they can't get out.. It's making up rules and therefor cheating

Thrawn2600 wrote:Yes
Also this image is not be best for "if you can pull it off" its a 5 min MS paint drawing.

Oh -different units?
First of all, the top tank in the T is in an illegal position - if there are models inside its 1" bubble on its movement phase, it moved there... But I'll write that off to it being Paint and not exact.

The white unit can "escape" by moving to the side. The shortest path can be more than a normal models movement. Why are you requiring the unit to stay in coherency during the move when there's no requirement for that?

He's doing it because the rule explicitly calls for the models covered to move out of the way; and doesn't say anything about moving other models in the unit (which aren't covered or within 1" of the vehicle). It's a rules hole. Better to take the discussion to YMDC and link the thread there here.

Worst case, the models would move from where they were to where the tank shocking vehicle started from.

In the U case scenario, the tank shocked unit inside the U would be placed at the top of the U where th vehicle came from.

The rules call for the models to be moved the shortest distance, at least 1" away and in coherency. So, if that shortest distance happened to be 48" away for some mysterious reason, the tank shocked squad would move 48" to that spot, not be destroyed. The bottom line is there is always going to be a space where the tank shocked unit could go. (with the worst case being the tank and the tank shocked unit switching spots).