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Hello,
Thank you form taking the time to read this. First off I should state this is not a petty squabble between friends or for that matter an argument at all. I have run into a situation that is unanswered by the FAQ and Erratta, or the rule book, as I have just re-read the entire book cover to cover (well the rules part).

The question and issue I have come across is that of the "Tank Shock". It seems that there is no ruling for a situation in which a tank shock is performed and the unit subject to the tank shock has no where to be placed out of the way of the tank.

Consider this:
A tank shock is performed. The unit passes it's leadership test and would just move out of the way except two models in a unit that is being tank shocked do not need to be moved, and thus can not be. While 5 models in-fact do need to be moved. it is impossible to keep them in coherency AND out from under the tank. the reason they could not be moved could be anything from impassible terrain, to another tank, or even a friendly unit bunched up around them.

Currently my friends and I have taken to saying models that can not legally be moved after a tank shock are destroyed. I have become very good at using encirclement tactics and very precise tank shocks to generate such a scenario.

The logic and our views of rules as intended seem to support this. As a mass of bodies are scrambling out of the way of the sheer mass, that is a rampaging tank, some that can not get out of it's way are crushed. Precedent can been found in that models coming on in reserve table edge can not fit, you lose the unit. While I think that is a bit strong, just removing the models that can not be legally placed seems to be the best.


Thank you for your time and careful consideration

You move the models in the way however much is necessary to be out of the way and in coherency with their unit. The minimum necessary can be quite a ways in the right circumstance.

There is no basis in the rules for killing models via a normal tank shock, if they did not choose to DoG or run off the table via failed Morale.

In the movement phase it states that models can not move through the space friendly models occupy or within one inch of an enemy unit or hull of a tank. assume this involves very good planning. as I have created the situation myself and there has been nowhere for the models to go!

I saw your diagrams in Tactics. It's a rules hole. I don't think your solution is the one I would choose.

I'd say move the whole unit if needed the minimum amount to be out of the way and in coherency. I believe that would be more in keeping with the design and seeming intent of the Tank Shock rules.

It is a pretty big hole is it not?

I was thinking logically I tried to imagine i situation in which a tank came barreling at me and the warriors that were feeling it were surrounded by the enemy. they would be either gunned down or crushed.

I wish i could get a real ruling though. I think the closet to fair would be the unit auto fails the moral check and falls back.

Rules don't say yes or no. If the rules had been written as "shortest possible" instead of just "shortest" things would have been clear cut.

But the tank shocking off board is extremely strong precedent in this case. It's basically case of "unit cannot be placed when moved shortest distance" and the ruling was "move unit shortest distance possible so that it can be placed".

I'd personally play it like that as there is no mention whatsoever in Tank Shock rules about possibility of killing models, obviously excluding DoG.

Mannahnin wrote:I'd say move the whole unit if needed the minimum amount to be out of the way and in coherency. I believe that would be more in keeping with the design and seeming intent of the Tank Shock rules.

This 100%

The rules say to move the model out of the way, so that is what you do.

Thrawn2600 wrote:The logic and our views of rules as intended seem to support this. As a mass of bodies are scrambling out of the way of the sheer mass, that is a rampaging tank, some that can not get out of it's way are crushed. Precedent can been found in that models coming on in reserve table edge can not fit, you lose the unit. While I think that is a bit strong, just removing the models that can not be legally placed seems to be the best.

As for the underlined:
The rules were not written to be "Real World" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

Logic has little to do with the RAW.

Bottom line it it does not say to remove the models as a casualty, so we can not remove any models as a casualty because of a tank shock (DoG/Deff Rolla aside).

Move the entire unit, behind the tank if necessary. There is no basis in the rules for them being killed and plenty of support in rules and FAQs for them (entire unit, if neccessary) to be moved as far as needed to get out of the way.

Thrawn2600 wrote:I was thinking logically I tried to imagine i situation in which a tank came barreling at me and the warriors that were feeling it were surrounded by the enemy. they would be either gunned down or crushed.

There's nothing realistic about the situation. It hinges on a) having an enemy unit hemmed-in a little over arms-reach away on all sides by your dudes; which can really only happen in a melee, and b) the rules abstraction of enemy units representing an impassible force field. If such a situation occurred IRL, the enemy would either interpenetrate your flanking infantry units, or just climb on top of your other (stationary) vehicle.

It's purely a theoretical exploit of the rules.

... or some of the models in 40k could be run over yet still survive with their beefy armor. So there are alot of ways which I wouldn't interpret your rules as the most realistic, OP. However, it still might be something I'd use as a house rule. Consider this though, left over from 2nd edition... models get an initiative test to avoid being run over and killed.

But if you want to interject real world into it, it's hard to stick on the "some models are not hit by the tank, so they cannot move" part of the rules. Because I can tell you that if a tank is headed your way, it doesn't matter what the damned rule is, you get out of the way. And generally WAY out of the way. No one is going to wait and see if the tank is going to stop 3' short of them before deciding to move.

So if you combine real world and RAW together, you get a vague justification for killing models. But if you use either/or, the enemy will do everything in their power to get everyone out of the way of the crushy metal thing.

Here's a hint, though: If in the very last month of the edition you're coming up with inventive ways to use the basic rules to your advantage, you probably aren't finding valid techniques.

don_mondo wrote:Move the entire unit, behind the tank if necessary. There is no basis in the rules for them being killed and plenty of support in rules and FAQs for them (entire unit, if neccessary) to be moved as far as needed to get out of the way.

This is how I have seen it played - the unit would just move behind the tank (referencing your diagram from the tactics thread)

don_mondo wrote:Move the entire unit, behind the tank if necessary. There is no basis in the rules for them being killed and plenty of support in rules and FAQs for them (entire unit, if neccessary) to be moved as far as needed to get out of the way.

Unfortunately you still can't even do this. You move the unit. You still have to follow the normal rules for movement, ie not comming within 1" of an enemy or moving though a friendly model. The problem is that you cannot move it. I've had this scenario before with a friendly LR, Rhino, Enemy LR, and a vindicator trapping a Captain and command squad. There is litterally nowhere you can move them.

As has already been stated it is a hole where the game rules breaks. Hopefully one that will be closed soon. Until then if you and your opponent can't decide what to do each of you come up with an idea and dice off on it using "the most important rule." It is still a game after all.

If my models need to travel 72" to he placed valid then so be it. They are not just squished. Will I be out of coherence sure so my turn they have to try and get back. (including running). But if I am fleet I can charge. And smile as you cane shoot the org half as it makes the trek to be coherent every assault phase.

Either you decide there is no legal place to put them, in which case you are breaking a rule and cannot perform the tank shock at all, or you allow them to move as far as is required.

Akroma06 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Move the entire unit, behind the tank if necessary. There is no basis in the rules for them being killed and plenty of support in rules and FAQs for them (entire unit, if neccessary) to be moved as far as needed to get out of the way.

Unfortunately you still can't even do this. You move the unit. You still have to follow the normal rules for movement, ie not comming within 1" of an enemy or moving though a friendly model.

Here's your mistake. They do not follow the normal rules for movment....................................... If you have to move them under the tank, you move them under the tank. If the closest clear spot to place the unit is 60" away, you move them 60".

nosferatu1001 wrote:Either you decide there is no legal place to put them, in which case you are breaking a rule and cannot perform the tank shock at all, or you allow them to move as far as is required.

Not so as it is a legal tank shock. I sent a message to games workshop

Thrawn2600 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Either you decide there is no legal place to put them, in which case you are breaking a rule and cannot perform the tank shock at all, or you allow them to move as far as is required.

Not so as it is a legal tank shock. I sent a message to games workshop

And? So some mail order troll will give you an answer, send another message and you'll get the opposite answer. Besides, GW has answered. Read the rulebook and FAQs.

Thrawn2600 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Either you decide there is no legal place to put them, in which case you are breaking a rule and cannot perform the tank shock at all, or you allow them to move as far as is required.

Not so as it is a legal tank shock. I sent a message to games workshop

Sending a "message to games workshop" will net you nothing but the receptionist that handles e-mails getting back to you.

Send the message twice and you are likely to get three different answers.

But you can tank shock, and you move them as far as is required as per the tank shock rules. There will be somewhere for them to go. you can put them where the tank came from if that is the shortest distance to get them to a clear spot.

I think the point some people are caught on is whether or not a unit who is "moved" out of the way of a tank shock "moves" in the same way as a unit in the Movement Phase.

There is no permission to move the unit within 1" of enemy models during the course of this movement, nor is there permission to move them through friendly models.

It is entirely possible to trap a unit then tank shock them with a unit of infantry, provided of course that the permissions above are indeed lacking.

Whether or not the unit that cannot move is then killed is up for contention - I, for one, would probably have to dice off with my opponent, as I believe that, while specific permission to move near/through enemy models is not granted, that it was intended. And that is how I would play it.

They are not moving to be within 1" of the tank that's shocking them. It has already breached that distance by tank shocking, and they are moving out of 1", by the shortest route that allows them to be outside of 1" and in coherency.

Exactly. They can absolutely move to where the tank came from, if that's the shortest path to safety.

Mannahnin wrote:They are not moving to be within 1" of the tank that's shocking them. It has already breached that distance by tank shocking, and they are moving out of 1", by the shortest route that allows them to be outside of 1" and in coherency.

Good call - they can indeed escape by moving behind / through the tank.

The difficulty is, if I understand the rule correctly, you're only given permission to move models that would otherwise be underneath the tank. If you have one or two that haven't been contacted, and they're surrounded by impassable terrain or enemy models, you might not be able to place the models you do have permission to move in coherency with them.

Consider a unit with 1 model surrounded on 3 sides by enemy, all 1" away, with the rest of his unit in a line leading away.
x = enemy
o = unit

xxxxxx
xxx o o o o o
xxxxxx

Now a large tank (say a Land Raider) tank shocks the unit coming in from above, contacting all of the other models and running out of movement so that it completely boxes in the 1 lone model it didn't contact.
T = Tank footprint

xxxxxxTTTTTT
xxx o TTTTTT
xxxxxxTTTTTT

You can't place the other models in coherency and you don't have permission to move the lone model that wasn't contacted.

Then you politely inform the tank shocking tank that by exposing this hole in the rules, it has committed a crime against the Emperor and remove the tank shocking vehicle from play and leave the tank shocked model where it was. That's just as reasonable as attempting to claim that the tank shocked model should be removed from play because of the oversight in the rules.

solkan wrote:Then you politely inform the tank shocking tank that by exposing this hole in the rules, it has committed a crime against the Emperor and remove the tank shocking vehicle from play and leave the tank shocked model where it was. That's just as reasonable as attempting to claim that the tank shocked model should be removed from play because of the oversight in the rules.

ok we dice off for it and it is a nice addition to the game.

It's ok! i think that in 6th it will be addressed

I'd say that if you are really pushing such a rule, where you are obviously trying to bend it to gain an advantage and get an easy kill, I'd label you TFG big time.

It really does sound that way, but im really easy. I just noticed it and only discovered it was not handled after some serious reading on the issue. my friends and I do it for fun. im not TFG.

I am a very laid back gamer.

also when the situation came up we did not know what to do. and in game with no FAQ and deep rulebook reading we just said models that could not be placed were destroyed.

I'm only pushing so hard online for answers, not for gain : ) !

Understood! I can see how you could come to that conclusion, even while disagreeing strongly with the conclusion you reached.

Mannahnin wrote:Understood! I can see how you could come to that conclusion, even while disagreeing strongly with the conclusion you reached.

I enjoy your sanity and not being all "OMGZ HOWS COULD YOU DO DAT!!!111!!!ELEVEN!! you must be STUPPPPIIIIDSS"