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So last night i was sitting reading the codex, been playing BT for about 4 years, and this is the first time i have actually looked at the numbers next to the crusade names on the inside of the back cover.

The numbers do match approximate counts for the crusades we know about, so i added them up 7277, and i thought heck thats just the crusades listed on that page what about all the ones that arent. Furthermore it even states in the bottom left paragraph that the crusade "was later joined by the srtike cruiser apocalypton and 6 rapid strike vessels. The number os SM on board in unknown", and that is just reinforcements for that crusade.

So with thta new information i believe we can make closer guesses as to how many BT their really are since i know most guesses prior to me finding this were about 7k total but in light of this new info i would say more upwards of 8 maby even 9k.

First, this is hardly "new" information, seeing as it's in the Codex. Secondly, the page you're referring to lists Black Templars crusades over the years. They're not all simultaneous, and as you can see it goes as far back as the Terran Crusade in M.35. The page is thus irrellevant when estimating the total strength of the Black Templars.

The rough estimate for BT numbers is around 10,000+. It has been flat out stated (I forget where) that if the BT were to gather all their crusades in one place, they would have one of the most powerful forces in the IoM, even stronger than the ultrasmurfs.

Razgryz wrote:The rough estimate for BT numbers is around 10,000+. It has been flat out stated (I forget where) that if the BT were to gather all their crusades in one place, they would have one of the most powerful forces in the IoM, even stronger than the ultrasmurfs.

Their codex states the following

BT CODEX wrote:...but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than conventional chapters. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five to six thousand battle brothers in total....

AlmightyWalrus wrote:First, this is hardly "new" information, seeing as it's in the Codex. Secondly, the page you're referring to lists Black Templars crusades over the years. They're not all simultaneous, and as you can see it goes as far back as the Terran Crusade in M.35. The page is thus irrellevant when estimating the total strength of the Black Templars.

Whoa calm down, i was nearly stating that I just then put 2 and 2 together. And I had not sat there and examined it I was just scanning, so now that I have looked back over it I realize that they are from different times. Oh and I am sorry someone spit in your cherios.

Razgryz wrote:The rough estimate for BT numbers is around 10,000+. It has been flat out stated (I forget where) that if the BT were to gather all their crusades in one place, they would have one of the most powerful forces in the IoM, even stronger than the ultrasmurfs.

I always thought it was closer to 6,000 once you took into account the casualties from the Crusaders we have "pre-casualty" numbers from.

Black Templars fight like Doritos, so they are constantly recruiting as they undoubtedly sustain higher casualty rates than other Chapters too. Plus, their lack of any central authority means the different Crusades are essentially recruiting and training in a vacuum without relation to the other Black Templar factions.

But, like it was said, the Codex says they number around 5-6,000.

Razgryz wrote:The rough estimate for BT numbers is around 10,000+. It has been flat out stated (I forget where) that if the BT were to gather all their crusades in one place, they would have one of the most powerful forces in the IoM, even stronger than the ultrasmurfs.

Stronger than the Imperial Guard?

Remember, the strength of the Imperial Guard is proportional to their necessity to the plot.

It's not a concretely definable function.

Buttons wrote:Stronger than the Imperial Guard?

Just like all other situations, it depends on the objective. Guard are good when you need to wage a war of attrition, so if that was the case than IG would be superior. However, if you were looking for a quick single victory with amazing spearhead capabilities, than the BT surely take the cake if they are all together. I think if the BT had to hold out in a 5 months Siege, the IG would do it better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Black Templars fight like Doritos, so they are constantly recruiting as they undoubtedly sustain higher casualty rates than other Chapters too.

Source?

That is slightly an aggogant statement, seeing as that it takes years just to make one a space marine, no chapter out there just throughs their marines to waste, the BT just use their deaths to spur them on into greater fervor, they dont let it make them panzie and back off then just get shot in the back. And besides when they charge foward they still take cover while moving forward they dont just stand in openground everytime lhey close the distance.

Besides look at it this way, when you lose a guy should you stand there and wait a little while longer and lose more to shooting, or should you run forward faster and get to grips with the enemy faster that way you are in open ground for less time meaning less casualitys.....seems that all BT haters never look at Righteous zeal from this aspect......i'll never understand that.

The concensus seems to be around the 6,000 mark.

Althought depending on what source you read, that number can go up to 17-18,000 mark

Cain wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Black Templars fight like Doritos, so they are constantly recruiting as they undoubtedly sustain higher casualty rates than other Chapters too.

Source?

That is slightly an aggogant statement, seeing as that it takes years just to make one a space marine, no chapter out there just throughs their marines to waste, the BT just use their deaths to spur them on into greater fervor, they dont let it make them panzie and back off then just get shot in the back. And besides when they charge foward they still take cover while moving forward they dont just stand in openground everytime lhey close the distance.

Besides look at it this way, when you lose a guy should you stand there and wait a little while longer and lose more to shooting, or should you run forward faster and get to grips with the enemy faster that way you are in open ground for less time meaning less casualitys.....seems that all BT haters never look at Righteous zeal from this aspect......i'll never understand that.

Sadly, as awesome as Righteous Zeal is, it embodies the BT spirit that they often do away with their tactics to get better grips on their enemy, as does the Oath that confers a 6+ invuln save to all BT's but makes them unable to use cover. It's really not a great trade-off when you think about it, and it's only saving grace is exactly what you had mentioned. In the end, it really just makes the BT's who survive close into their enemy quicker. Don't get me wrong, the BT's are awesome, I play them, but he's right and his source is plain common sense: a bigger chapter, spread the farthest across the galaxy that is so insanely devoted to spilling blood in CC is going to take quite a few more casualties than any other chapter even in the best circumstances. Furthermore, their neophytes would undoubtedly take more casualties than lets say the Space Wolves because they are not put into scouting positions but rather with the main army and expected to perform the same duties as a better trained, more experienced, and better equipped Initiate.

Yep, it's a comment that needs no source, just an analysis of Black Templars fluff and described fighting styles and tactics. And I don't know how it would be arrogant anyway. Think that guy needs a dictionary, lol.

Oh, and I was a real Marine infantryman and weapons instructor. I think you should stick to playing with plastic toy soldiers instead of suggesting what you should, or shouldn't, do when taking enemy fire, lol. This is a forum for plastic toy soldiers son. Try to keep your head on straight.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yep, it's a comment that needs no source, just an analysis of Black Templars fluff and described fighting styles and tactics. And I don't know how it would be arrogant anyway. Think that guy needs a dictionary, lol.

Oh, and I was a real Marine infantryman and weapons instructor. I think you should stick to playing with plastic toy soldiers instead of suggesting what you should, or shouldn't, do when taking enemy fire, lol. This is a forum for plastic toy soldiers son. Try to keep your head on straight.

Yeah, I'd much rather follow you into battle sir. URAH.

This is the reason why the Black Templars are under surveillance from the Inquisition, even more than the Dark Angels. The Black Templars do not want outsiders in their business, so much so that when an inquisitor was sent to do a census on the chapter, he got as far as one...

Cain wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:First, this is hardly "new" information, seeing as it's in the Codex. Secondly, the page you're referring to lists Black Templars crusades over the years. They're not all simultaneous, and as you can see it goes as far back as the Terran Crusade in M.35. The page is thus irrellevant when estimating the total strength of the Black Templars.

Whoa calm down, i was nearly stating that I just then put 2 and 2 together. And I had not sat there and examined it I was just scanning, so now that I have looked back over it I realize that they are from different times. Oh and I am sorry someone spit in your cherios.

If you can't take people pointing out errors I suggest you don't post at all. I had no intention to insult you, but the fact remains that the information is neither new nor relevant.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Black Templars fight like Doritos, so they are constantly recruiting as they undoubtedly sustain higher casualty rates than other Chapters too. Plus, their lack of any central authority means the different Crusades are essentially recruiting and training in a vacuum without relation to the other Black Templar factions.

But, like it was said, the Codex says they number around 5-6,000.

This is a quote from a previous thread about this very subject;

I do apologize. I didn't mean the whole text. I meant the whole sentence. Sorry about that.

Brother Coa wrote: If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as string as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.

See?

"If certain accounts"....meaning not all accounts.

"are to be believed".......meaning they might not be accurate.

"could even"....meaning it might not be true.

"be as strong as"......meaning up to, but might be less.

"five thousand to six thousand".....meaning certainly not the 6000+ drivel being perpetuated as fact all the time.


If somebody throw out an off-hand and final statement like;" Black Templars are 6000+ strong".
They will receive an equally off-hand and final answer like; "No, they are not".

Doritos?

Brothers, smite the alien with your nacho cheese!