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kaachev the terrible +5 warjack points

x2 spaiggan 10 each

winter guard + winter guard officer & standard + kovnik jozef 10 total

this is my 35 points list ive only played 9 games and i lost 3 of them im still somewhat learning the ropes but i always loose to trolls it seems any suggestions ( trolls usually knock me down and throw bombs at me all day long while hiding in cover)

( also i have a habit of playing defencivly is there a way to make a defensive list?)

no one?

Looks good. Does Karchev play as awesome as he looks? I'm thinking about swapping Sorcha for him or the Butcher.

WG is not a great thing to take with K. Also how are they knocking you down? Once engaged you need to be putting up Sidearms and keeping a jack B2B with you so you can not be knocked down. I personally would drop the WG and run either Widowmakers + min unit of mechaniks + MOW Drakun or run a full unit of Kayazy + underboss.

As I said though just quit committing both Jacks and put up sidearms once you get close.

Shadowbrand wrote:Looks good. Does Karchev play as awesome as he looks? I'm thinking about swapping Sorcha for him or the Butcher.

well i tryed 1 game with him (because i only ever played 9 games) and he ususaly kills what ever he can hit but if he gets swarmed use your push back spell or run because he does not like that ( also leave him at least 1 focus) and i need to learn how to play more aggressively


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wargolem wrote:WG is not a great thing to take with K. Also how are they knocking you down? Once engaged you need to be putting up Sidearms and keeping a jack B2B with you so you can not be knocked down. I personally would drop the WG and run either Widowmakers + min unit of mechaniks + MOW Drakun or run a full unit of Kayazy + underboss.

As I said though just quit committing both Jacks and put up sidearms once you get close.

the reason why i took this list was to counter being knocked down it used to be winter guard but then i heard that the wg are a death star unit for 10 so i wanted to try them out but im not sure what makes them a death star unit because of my stupidity

The problem with running the WGDS with karchev is that they need support. A significant part of why they are so good is that they are cheap and effective and you get tons of them, so they benefit from support spells like Iron Flesh very well. Karchev has no support spells for infantry, so, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have them.

It is difficult to play defensively as khador at this point level. Usually when I run a defensive karchev list, I run the behemoth. Basically you just tow the behemoth around the field while it hurls mortars at your enemies who will find it very very difficult to catch them (karchev upkeeps tow and runs 12, pulling the behemoth 12). At 35 pts, it probably wont work that well since there are so many models on the field and it takes sooo long to wear down your opponent.

My defensive list usually looks like this:

Karchev - +5wj
-Behemoth - 13
-Beast 09 - 11

Battle mechanics - 2
Battle Mechanics - 2
Koldun Lord - 2

The gist of the list is that you use the behemoth to wear down your enemy. Once you thin out their swarm infantry, you will be free to engage with beast and behemoth. The koldun lord is there to grant an extra focus since karchev's focus pool is basically always going to be drained. The most important thing here is that you use the behemoth to engage the heaviest target possible in melee, save beast either for infantry clearing or caster killing, and usually you will use karchev's fissure to disable whatever the beast/behemoth cant engage. Karchev appears to be very tough, but he really is not that difficult to kill. If your enemy sneaks some weapon mastered infantry with buffs around your jacks, they will do some serious damage to karchev.

KingKodo wrote:The problem with running the WGDS with karchev is that they need support. A significant part of why they are so good is that they are cheap and effective and you get tons of them, so they benefit from support spells like Iron Flesh very well. Karchev has no support spells for infantry, so, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have them.

It is difficult to play defensively as khador at this point level. Usually when I run a defensive karchev list, I run the behemoth. Basically you just tow the behemoth around the field while it hurls mortars at your enemies who will find it very very difficult to catch them (karchev upkeeps tow and runs 12, pulling the behemoth 12). At 35 pts, it probably wont work that well since there are so many models on the field and it takes sooo long to wear down your opponent.

My defensive list usually looks like this:

Karchev - +5wj
-Behemoth - 13
-Beast 09 - 11

Battle mechanics - 2
Battle Mechanics - 2
Koldun Lord - 2

The gist of the list is that you use the behemoth to wear down your enemy. Once you thin out their swarm infantry, you will be free to engage with beast and behemoth. The koldun lord is there to grant an extra focus since karchev's focus pool is basically always going to be drained. The most important thing here is that you use the behemoth to engage the heaviest target possible in melee, save beast either for infantry clearing or caster killing, and usually you will use karchev's fissure to disable whatever the beast/behemoth cant engage. Karchev appears to be very tough, but he really is not that difficult to kill. If your enemy sneaks some weapon mastered infantry with buffs around your jacks, they will do some serious damage to karchev.

i tryed battle mehanics but they didnt do anything they just got thrown and died and im trying to get out of my habbit of being a paranoid deficive player so thats why im trying to play it aggressivly use my caster himself as bait and flank with the winter guard


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if i really wanted to play defencvly ( dont have the books just have the 2010 cards) i would use a +6 wj point character behemoth and 2 destroyers

Flanking is relatively pointless, especially when you are trying to flank with a tarpit unit. The winterguard are supposed to get in the way, then you flank with an assassin/heavy hitting unit like manhunters or greatbears.

I would still rather trade in the WGDS for a third jack to maximize Tow. You have the points available to you to run a Spriggan, Beast 09, + a 9 point jack of your choosing or a lesser point jack in addition to some support. I hear Drago is very solid with karchev because karchev can boost his atk and dmg rolls without risking explosion. Drago is also 8 pts, so, you could then take a 1pt solo to go with Karchev and behold, reinholdt happens to be an excellent choice with karchev since he grants a second fissure attack.

Running those four heavies gives you all kinds of options. Beast, spriggan, and karchev can murder infantry swarms. Everything in the list can completely demolish enemy jacks, and karchev, beast, and spriggan can all effectively hit good defense warcasters.

Finally - The behemoth/karchev/mechanic battleship list is one of the most difficult to deal with as far as defensive lists go. Behemoth and 2 destroyers would get run over by just about anything.


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The mechanics dont really work in most lists. They work in the battleship list because they can walk away from your enemy every turn and karchev will just keep towing the behemoth into them, so they tend to stay out of harms way most of the time.

They tend to get killed off early in aggressive lists.

I like to run Karchev quite a bit and about the best list I have found that can play scenarios and play caster kill is this one.

Karchev +5 jack points
16 pts 2 x Kodiak ----- clouds while moving up plus they have pathfinder which helps a lot since the only time you will have pathfinder on any of your jacks is under Karchev's feat turn. Also while under unearthly rage the initials hit and you get the third attack (from smash and grab) for free & normally you use that as a double handed throw to knock something down for your third jack to hit.......


13 pts Behemoth ----- with karchev he really shines and he balances the list and gives you the option to let the kodiaks screen and he and karchev abuse TOW for his aiming bonus.

so thats 29 points of jacks minus your 5 jack points. That puts you at 24 with a solid battlegroup. We need to finish out the 35 points and see what we can bring. Again I like to have options and since we need some sort of spot removal that can function without help from our warcaster lets look for some ranged options.....

4 pts widowmakers Advance deploy - check, Camo -- check, pathfinder -- check, Snipe for pesky one wound models -- check. Add in Widowmaker marksman and you get swift hunter to allow you to fade back into the trees 2" after killing something.
2 pts WMM -- same as the Widowmakers but he gives them all swift hunter and he has 2 more POW on his rifle and has stealth.

The last 5 points is where you have to makes some hard choices, We know that our side likes to be hit, because or else we would have higher than 10 DEF on our jacks.... So I almost always include AT LEAST a min unit of mechanics...

2 pts min mechanics. Like you said they normally die pretty fast and occasionally don't do much so don't invest a lot in them but at least these 2 points you should get your money back out of them.

EITHER.... Eiyriss, OR Kell Bailoth & a war dog..... OR War Dog and a Sylas. Meh I normally run the Kell & wardog to give me another 2 sniper shots. So all together if you run this with Kell you will have 5 shots from Widowmakers & WM marksman + 2 shots from kell if he forfiets movement for the aiming bonus...... for a total of 7 shots that are at 14" range with snipe.

So to sum up you have 2 awesome hand to hand jacks that get the bonus power attack if they hit with both initial fist attacks and they have pathfinder so one or both can run out in fron and take the charge. You also have behemoth to drop bombards with and that gets you up to 9 shots a round if you go with the snipers I suggested, NOT including the spray from fissure if you need it. I reccommend running sidearms with karchev & behemoth and the 2 kodiaks Base to Base with each other since they are only required to be base to base with another member of the battlegroup not just Karchev. Moving the ranged soft units and solos up slowly to get the shots of to thin the herd and keep the mechanics about max range behind the jacks and karchev so they are not close enough to get blasted from an AOE scatter.

Meh I hope that helps.

First id swap Karchev out with eSorscha. Then id lose the two Spriggans and use one kodiak. Then add the 3 weapon attachements for the WG and really make them a force to be reckoned with. Then You could do a max unit of Man-o-War shocktroopers. So something like this..

eSorscha +6
Kodiak -8
wardog -1

winterguard infantry max -6
WGI UA- 2
Rocketeer x3 -3
Kovnik Jozef-2

Max Man-o-war shocktroopers -9




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Or another thing you could try which is less offensive and destructive and more tactical is to take the man-o-wars out take the war dog out and take one rocketeer out and feild the Kayazy assasins and the underboss. and a min unit of kossite woodsmen,

How i picture that working is sending the winter guard up the middle draw as much attention to them as you can, Defend them from the larger threats with the Kodiak. and they should hold there own for a while if you have them iron fleshed.Then along on side of the field you can try and work the kayazy up closer to there caster. Now if your opponents not entirely stupid he will realize the threat and send something to counter the kayazy. Most likley underestimating there abilities. If you manage to pop the underbosses mini feat at the right time you can move right through his counter measures(hopefully) and then ambush those counter measures with the kossite woodsmen. and continue the kayazy onward to a caster kill. Its not the perfect list or strategy but i think itd look cool as hell to manage and pull that off.

everyone that i play agenst is a vet player >.> the hardest time i have is with trolls

What style of lists do they play? Do you see alot of brick lists? Where they bunch up to maximize synergy buffs? I know trolls are very fond of that which is why I suggested taking Beast. Running beast with karchev will be extremely effective against trolls, as you will likely be able to hurl beast into that big core brick unit and have him completely slaughter everything with thresher.

In response to slr138 - Kayazy assassins are one of my favorite unit choices, I have found that they play the best pIrusk for a couple reasons. First off, pIrusk can slow down your enemies by making tons of rough terrain. This allows the kayazy to engage in better positions. Second, pIrusk has iron flesh, and kayazy are incredible with that buff, in fact, I would recommend running kayazy only if you have access to it. It will bring their defense up to 19 in melee. lastly, pIrusk's spell battle lust makes kayazy fearless and weapon mastered, which solves their issue of having only a single, low POW attack.

The kayazy also have the best MAT of any infantry units. They have 7 base, +2 from gang, and irusk's feat gives them another +2, making them MAT11. This basically guarantees a hit on almost anything, even high defense warcasters will get hit on less than average rolls, and they will roll 12+3d6 or 4d6 on a charge.

ok so what everyone has been telling me is very mixed things so after i try out the list i made if it fails i will try a make a new one

You think that'd work with the kossite? i have been trying to think of useful ways to use them because i think that there ambush is awesome .

slr138 wrote:You think that'd work with the kossite? i have been trying to think of useful ways to use them because i think that there ambush is awesome .

im not fimilure with names who is kosite?

kossite woodsmen. Your able to ambush with them meaning, anytime after turn one you can deploy them 3 inches from any side of the table other than your opponents deployment zone.


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there pretty easily dispatched with though. So i think they would best be used as a distraction or something.

slr138 wrote:kossite woodsmen. Your able to ambush with them meaning, anytime after turn one you can deploy them 3 inches from any side of the table other than your opponents deployment zone.


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there pretty easily dispatched with though. So i think they would best be used as a distraction or something.

so any time i want? so if the caster is at the bord edge i can just pop there and punch that trolls face in

i would get a few more troopers and another warjack, then alternate between them.

jbsnv wrote:

slr138 wrote:kossite woodsmen. Your able to ambush with them meaning, anytime after turn one you can deploy them 3 inches from any side of the table other than your opponents deployment zone.


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there pretty easily dispatched with though. So i think they would best be used as a distraction or something.

so any time i want? so if the caster is at the bord edge i can just pop there and punch that trolls face in

I believe you can put them on the field any time during your turn. They are cheap at 6 points for a max squad, but they have glaring weaknesses. These weaknesses include having the Lowest RAT and MAT in khador at 4 each. Their weapons have mediocre range of 10 and mediocre pow of 10. Their defenses are also terrible at 12/12. The only possible way to make them dangerous is to ambush them so that they are completely in the back arc of the enemy models, AND within range of enemy models so that they get the aiming bonus. This will at least make it so they have a decent chance to hit. They can put some damage on your average warcaster but dont expect them to be game changing.

I have tried to play lists that make use of them but so far, they have been relatively useless. I think they would do well with warcasters that off army wide buffs, such as pIrusk who could give them battle lust and +2 to atk rolls from his feat. Or butcher who could feat them for the extra damage die and iron flesh them to make them kind of hard to hit next turn.

Lets put it this way, there is a very very good reason as to why you rarely see them being used.


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jbsnv wrote:ok so what everyone has been telling me is very mixed things so after i try out the list i made if it fails i will try a make a new one

I sort of thought you were looking for 25pt list ideas and that you wanted to use karchev. You should focus on getting at least 3 jacks in his battlegroup, that maximizes his synergy. You also need to focus on bringing jacks that can handle multiple situations (such as beast, who can kill infantry swarms, high def casters, and heavy warjacks easily, or the spriggan that can impale warcasters and jacks, reveal stealth, and mortar light infantry) since you will likely only have four or five models to play with.

Karchev only offers support to his battlegroup, so, you need to bring models that operate well without support. Widowmakers are excellent for this role. They are very difficult to hit, so, your enemy will be forced to dedicate some firepower to get rid of them, especially since they can be so lethal to infantry and solos such as mechanics and chiors of menoth. Other models that fill the role would be manhunters. They are stealth and actually have very solid defenses at 14/14. This actually makes them very difficult to kill with your average AOE as you have to roll a 19 to kill them. They are fast and extremely deadly, they can easily butcher a warcaster if they get the charge.


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Shadowbrand wrote:Looks good. Does Karchev play as awesome as he looks? I'm thinking about swapping Sorcha for him or the Butcher.

Yes, he does. He makes khador's slow warjacks terrifyingly fast, and he can play extremely aggressive or extremely defensive and still be effective. I have used him a few times against my friends and the look on their face when I place four massive heavy warjacks on the field in a 15, 20, or 25 point game is priceless. He has some excellent spells and fantastic abilities. His only real weakness (besides being a large base) is that he does not have the focus to cast all of his amazing spells all the time. However, he can do all the warjack power attacks without spending focus, and he can charge without spending focus, and he can make up to 7 POW 19 melee attacks. The only model in the game that is better in straight up melee combat is the butcher, but karchev is significantly harder to kill.

YELLOWBLADES wrote:i would get a few more troopers and another warjack, then alternate between them.

i cant that is 25 more points how could i fit more in there?


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KingKodo wrote:

jbsnv wrote:

slr138 wrote:kossite woodsmen. Your able to ambush with them meaning, anytime after turn one you can deploy them 3 inches from any side of the table other than your opponents deployment zone.


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there pretty easily dispatched with though. So i think they would best be used as a distraction or something.

so any time i want? so if the caster is at the bord edge i can just pop there and punch that trolls face in

I believe you can put them on the field any time during your turn. They are cheap at 6 points for a max squad, but they have glaring weaknesses. These weaknesses include having the Lowest RAT and MAT in khador at 4 each. Their weapons have mediocre range of 10 and mediocre pow of 10. Their defenses are also terrible at 12/12. The only possible way to make them dangerous is to ambush them so that they are completely in the back arc of the enemy models, AND within range of enemy models so that they get the aiming bonus. This will at least make it so they have a decent chance to hit. They can put some damage on your average warcaster but dont expect them to be game changing.

I have tried to play lists that make use of them but so far, they have been relatively useless. I think they would do well with warcasters that off army wide buffs, such as pIrusk who could give them battle lust and +2 to atk rolls from his feat. Or butcher who could feat them for the extra damage die and iron flesh them to make them kind of hard to hit next turn.

Lets put it this way, there is a very very good reason as to why you rarely see them being used.


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jbsnv wrote:ok so what everyone has been telling me is very mixed things so after i try out the list i made if it fails i will try a make a new one

I sort of thought you were looking for 25pt list ideas and that you wanted to use karchev. You should focus on getting at least 3 jacks in his battlegroup, that maximizes his synergy. You also need to focus on bringing jacks that can handle multiple situations (such as beast, who can kill infantry swarms, high def casters, and heavy warjacks easily, or the spriggan that can impale warcasters and jacks, reveal stealth, and mortar light infantry) since you will likely only have four or five models to play with.

Karchev only offers support to his battlegroup, so, you need to bring models that operate well without support. Widowmakers are excellent for this role. They are very difficult to hit, so, your enemy will be forced to dedicate some firepower to get rid of them, especially since they can be so lethal to infantry and solos such as mechanics and chiors of menoth. Other models that fill the role would be manhunters. They are stealth and actually have very solid defenses at 14/14. This actually makes them very difficult to kill with your average AOE as you have to roll a 19 to kill them. They are fast and extremely deadly, they can easily butcher a warcaster if they get the charge.


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Shadowbrand wrote:Looks good. Does Karchev play as awesome as he looks? I'm thinking about swapping Sorcha for him or the Butcher.

Yes, he does. He makes khador's slow warjacks terrifyingly fast, and he can play extremely aggressive or extremely defensive and still be effective. I have used him a few times against my friends and the look on their face when I place four massive heavy warjacks on the field in a 15, 20, or 25 point game is priceless. He has some excellent spells and fantastic abilities. His only real weakness (besides being a large base) is that he does not have the focus to cast all of his amazing spells all the time. However, he can do all the warjack power attacks without spending focus, and he can charge without spending focus, and he can make up to 7 POW 19 melee attacks. The only model in the game that is better in straight up melee combat is the butcher, but karchev is significantly harder to kill.

i thank you for your info you have been the most helpfull so far and what i was looking for was information on how to play or what to change and i will swap the winter guard for widowmakers and 4 points os something else