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So i was thinking today about the ultimate winner of 40k and i came to the conclusion that the dakr eldar actually have the best chance of surviving and prospering. My reason for this is that after the tyranids have eaten the galaxy and killed off all other life the Dark eldar will have the best oppurunity to terraform and repopulate the galaxy. Also without slannesh breathing down their neck as i presume all chaos will die out from lack of sustenance they could go back to their old ways without the need for slaves, If however slaanesh did survive they could still breed slaves to torture anyway. Also without all the other races messing around and getting in the way they could potentially create another glactic empire although i presume this one would go the same way as the last empire.

Sonyca wrote:Also without slannesh breathing down their neck as i presume all chaos will die out from lack of sustenance

Why would they die? There's still mortal living and feeding them emotions. They don't live on eating souls, Slaanesh just likes eating Eldar souls.

The tragedy of the Dark Eldar is while they prolong their lives through torture, they also prolong their tormentors life as she waits for the last of them.

The way I play them, they'll all be dead before we get to that point.

I think it's more likely that Dark Eldar society would tear itself apart after they ran out of viable prey. All the sadism might be an effective defence against Slaanesh, but it's not like they're keen to give it up. It's who they are. When they've no-one else to hurt, they'll just turn on each other and Commoragh will eat itself.

Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

-Loki- wrote:

Sonyca wrote:Also without slannesh breathing down their neck as i presume all chaos will die out from lack of sustenance

Why would they die? There's still mortal living and feeding them emotions. They don't live on eating souls, Slaanesh just likes eating Eldar souls.

The tragedy of the Dark Eldar is while they prolong their lives through torture, they also prolong their tormentors life as she waits for the last of them.

Yes but if all the other mortal races have been devoured and thus aren't feeding the chaos gods through their emotions surely chaos will be destroyed and if not severly weakened.

Tadashi wrote:Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

Do you have a source for him stabilizing the warp, I thought his only affects were the astronomican and stopping daemons escaping the imperial webway?

Sonyca wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

Do you have a source for him stabilizing the warp, I thought his only affects were the astronomican and stopping daemons escaping the imperial webway?

The 5th Edition rulebook mentions Him keeping the Chaos Powers out of reality; since Chaos does exist in reality, the Emperor moderates their influence and prevents them from manifesting directly in a similar manner to the old Eldar Gods, who directly interacted with the Ancient Eldar. Most likely, the Emperor was doing so long before He became the Emperor.

^^ Another souce about the Emperor holdin back the warp is in the AOBR read me first panflit. Its in the IOM section of the book

Agree with you Tadashi that the orks would win in the end!!!!

Tadashi wrote:
The 5th Edition rulebook mentions Him keeping the Chaos Powers out of reality; since Chaos does exist in reality, the Emperor moderates their influence and prevents them from manifesting directly in a similar manner to the old Eldar Gods, who directly interacted with the Ancient Eldar. Most likely, the Emperor was doing so long before He became the Emperor.

That'd mess up the craftworld and exodite eldar, but I don't think it'd affect the DE as much since they hide out in the webway. Given that the webway is neither in the material nor the immaterium, and it managed to protect them from the birth of Slaanesh I'd imagine they'd be pretty safe.

However in your scenario they'd just end up dying off later rather than sooner as their supply of slaves slowly dries up and (I imagine) they lose the ability to linger in realspace for any amount of time thus stopping them from resource gathering. IIRC staying in the webway protects them from Slaanesh, but after a millenia of prolonging their existences via torture, when they venture into realspace they slowly wither as Slaanesh saps their spirits (also as described in Path of the Renegade). Demons rampaging around in reality I assume would only accelerate that eventually to the point where stepping out of the webway would dessicate them instantly.

Even the Webway only slows Slannesh's consumption of their souls, and without any slaves to torture(after Chaos noms everything) they will eventually all be consumed.


But when the Emperor dies is when he finally gets loosed into the Warp, to either be reborn again OR kick some serious chaos *** and become mankind's warp god.

Tadashi wrote:Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

Are you high? How do the Necrons get swept so easily? Last time I checked (which was about 30 seconds ago) they still have a device the completely cuts off the Warp from the planet the device is on. If they get insanely desperate, they could unleash the shards, which would reform into the C'tan and faceroll many a daemon.

The only real way to answer this would mean figuring out the domain of the Chaos Gods (as in, do they gather their strength form the emotions of all living beings in the universe or simply this galaxy). Like the Tyranids, if the Chaos gods feed on the emotions of every living thing in the universe, squishing a galaxy, even one as warlike as the 40k one, would not be a problem at all.

McNinja wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

Are you high? How do the Necrons get swept so easily? Last time I checked (which was about 30 seconds ago) they still have a device the completely cuts off the Warp from the planet the device is on. If they get insanely desperate, they could unleash the shards, which would reform into the C'tan and faceroll many a daemon.

The only real way to answer this would mean figuring out the domain of the Chaos Gods (as in, do they gather their strength form the emotions of all living beings in the universe or simply this galaxy). Like the Tyranids, if the Chaos gods feed on the emotions of every living thing in the universe, squishing a galaxy, even one as warlike as the 40k one, would not be a problem at all.

I was about to post something similar. A lot of the lore has changed in this respect, Necrons aren't afraid of the Warp anymore. They have several devices to combat it.

There is a quote in IA2ED In the Necron codex, about how a contingent of CSM and their Daemons were swept aside "By their killing light". The only survivor was an aspiring Champion who ran.

McNinja wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Wrong. The first to go extinct when the Emperor finally dies (assuming He isn't reborn or restored the moment the Throne fails) are the Eldar. The moderating effect He had on the Warp will be gone, so Slaanesh will be consuming/draining their souls much more ravenously. Next are the Necrons; as Imperial power wanes, Chaos waxes. The Warp will flood reality, and the Necrons will perish as a result. Next, Chaos itself. Humans will be consumed by Chaos, and Chaos will destroy itself as Humans destroy one another. The only ones to be left are the Orks and the Tyranids. TBH, I'm putting my money on Orks being the last one standing.

Are you high? How do the Necrons get swept so easily? Last time I checked (which was about 30 seconds ago) they still have a device the completely cuts off the Warp from the planet the device is on. If they get insanely desperate, they could unleash the shards, which would reform into the C'tan and faceroll many a daemon.

The only real way to answer this would mean figuring out the domain of the Chaos Gods (as in, do they gather their strength form the emotions of all living beings in the universe or simply this galaxy). Like the Tyranids, if the Chaos gods feed on the emotions of every living thing in the universe, squishing a galaxy, even one as warlike as the 40k one, would not be a problem at all.

PURE CHAOS.

Imagine three-quarters of the galaxy plunging into the Warp in an instant. They wouldn't have a chance to deploy said devices. Reality will collapse in on itself until the Warp stabilizes.

We really don't know that that is what would happen if the golden throne fell. Your making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions. We know the Emperor is stopping a warp breach from opening on earth, but we dont know how big it would be. Your three-quarters number is something you just pulled from your head with no foundation in fluff.

And the Necrons already HAVE deployed and activated those devices on their own worlds, it discusses that in their codex. They already activated them on their own worlds to protect themselves from chaos incursions. So as long as we are making up fluff extrapolations based on a few lines of text, it is JUSt as likely that the Necrons would come out ahead as the only ones in the Materium who have any real defense set up against chaos incursions.

riplikash wrote:We really don't know that that is what would happen if the golden throne fell. Your making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions. We know the Emperor is stopping a warp breach from opening on earth, but we dont know how big it would be. Your three-quarters number is something you just pulled from your head with no foundation in fluff.

The three-quarters is an approximation of the Imperium's size, that is the territory dominated by Humans and covered by the Astronomican. Assuming the Emperor keeps Mankind's darkness from affecting the Warp in a similar way as the Eldar did before the Fall, if the Emperor doesn't get reborn/restored, their stands a fair chance that the entire area sinks into the Warp. After all, the Eldar Empire became the Eye after the Fall.

And the Necrons already HAVE deployed and activated those devices on their own worlds, it discusses that in their codex. They already activated them on their own worlds to protect themselves from chaos incursions.

Those devices can be overloaded. The ones on Cadia nearly burned out during the 13th Black Crusade. How much worse when there's nothing left to moderate the Warp? Or worse, the Emperor truly ascends and takes his place among the gods?

Aren't the ones on Cadia over a thousand years old, and haven't seen a day of maintenance?
I think that may be why they got burned out.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Aren't the ones on Cadia over a thousand years old, and haven't seen a day of maintenance?
I think that may be why they got burned out.

Fair enough, but let's not forget those devices are arguably stronger than the ones on most Tomb Worlds, since they've been holding back the Eye of Terror. Although to be honest, they never really burned out, just really worn out, thanks to the massive warp storms being deliberately unleashed in the area. It also raises the question: since the Eye didn't exist back during the War in Heaven, did the Necrons build those devices right after the Fall?

I think that the ultimate winner can only be.... the Squats.

Necronboy wrote:I think that the ultimate winner can only be.... the Squats.

What squats? There's no such thing! BLAM! HERESY! BLAM!

Tadashi wrote:
The three-quarters is an approximation of the Imperium's size, that is the territory dominated by Humans and covered by the Astronomican. Assuming the Emperor keeps Mankind's darkness from affecting the Warp in a similar way as the Eldar did before the Fall, if the Emperor doesn't get reborn/restored, their stands a fair chance that the entire area sinks into the Warp. After all, the Eldar Empire became the Eye after the Fall.

Three quarters is a horrible approximation of the Imperiums size. Imperial territory and is sparsely populated and paper thin compared to that of the Eldar pre-fall. The Eldar actively terraformed, their territory was actually dense with Eldar worlds, millions and millions of worlds within less than a fifth of the galaxy. The Imperium only reclaimed what surviving worlds it could find. 1 million worlds. Most of "imperial space" is not populated by humans. And beyond that the bulk Eldar race was significantly more psychically powerful than the human race, and actively engaging in the most horrible depravity. The situations are totally different.

Those devices can be overloaded. The ones on Cadia nearly burned out during the 13th Black Crusade. How much worse when there's nothing left to moderate the Warp? Or worse, the Emperor truly ascends and takes his place among the gods?

You have no idea how much or if the Emperor is moderating the warp. The ones on Cadia burned out after a major incursion by the united powers of chaos in close proximity to the largest, most powerful warp rift in the galaxy after 60 million years of of damage and no maintenance. Again, there is little to no reason to assume similar situations the galaxy over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Aren't the ones on Cadia over a thousand years old, and haven't seen a day of maintenance?
I think that may be why they got burned out.

Fair enough, but let's not forget those devices are arguably stronger than the ones on most Tomb Worlds, since they've been holding back the Eye of Terror. Although to be honest, they never really burned out, just really worn out, thanks to the massive warp storms being deliberately unleashed in the area. It also raises the question: since the Eye didn't exist back during the War in Heaven, did the Necrons build those devices right after the Fall?

Likely they built them because that was the seat of the Eldar's (and therefore likely the Old One's) power, and they had intended to cut them off.

Oh, and

but let's not forget those devices are arguably stronger than the ones on most Tomb Worlds

You are making things up again. You have no fluff support for that one way or the other.

riplikash wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
The three-quarters is an approximation of the Imperium's size, that is the territory dominated by Humans and covered by the Astronomican. Assuming the Emperor keeps Mankind's darkness from affecting the Warp in a similar way as the Eldar did before the Fall, if the Emperor doesn't get reborn/restored, their stands a fair chance that the entire area sinks into the Warp. After all, the Eldar Empire became the Eye after the Fall.

Three quarters is a horrible approximation of the Imperiums size. Imperial territory and is sparsely populated and paper thin compared to that of the Eldar pre-fall. The Eldar actively terraformed, their territory was actually dense with Eldar worlds, millions and millions of worlds within less than a fifth of the galaxy. The Imperium only reclaimed what surviving worlds it could find. 1 million worlds. Most of "imperial space" is not populated by humans. And beyond that the bulk Eldar race was significantly more psychically powerful than the human race, and actively engaging in the most horrible depravity. The situations are totally different.

You're ignoring the intimate connection between Mankind and Chaos. Chaos IS Mankind. The three elder Powers achieved sentience only after feeding off the unstable psyche of the Human species, assuming they were born during the War in Heaven. Even if they did not, their power rivals that of the Eldar Gods, otherwise the latter could have easily confronted the former and destroyed them the moment they achieved sentience. It doesn't matter whether or not more Eldar lived on Eldar worlds before the Fall. One million sacrifices ignited the Warp Storms that ravage the areas around Cadia. If Erebus sacrificed a trillion Humans, the result would be more catastrophic than all the Craftworlds burning at once.

Those devices can be overloaded. The ones on Cadia nearly burned out during the 13th Black Crusade. How much worse when there's nothing left to moderate the Warp? Or worse, the Emperor truly ascends and takes his place among the gods?

You have no idea how much or if the Emperor is moderating the warp. The ones on Cadia burned out after a major incursion by the united powers of chaos in close proximity to the largest, most powerful warp rift in the galaxy after 60 million years of of damage and no maintenance. Again, there is little to no reason to assume similar situations the galaxy over.

See above post. Oh, and the Rulebook states that the Emperor keeps the Chaos Powers back, implying He does moderate the Warp.

Tadashi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Aren't the ones on Cadia over a thousand years old, and haven't seen a day of maintenance?
I think that may be why they got burned out.

Fair enough, but let's not forget those devices are arguably stronger than the ones on most Tomb Worlds, since they've been holding back the Eye of Terror. Although to be honest, they never really burned out, just really worn out, thanks to the massive warp storms being deliberately unleashed in the area. It also raises the question: since the Eye didn't exist back during the War in Heaven, did the Necrons build those devices right after the Fall?

Likely they built them because that was the seat of the Eldar's (and therefore likely the Old One's) power, and they had intended to cut them off.

If they could do that, why did they go into dormancy in the first place?

but let's not forget those devices are arguably stronger than the ones on most Tomb Worlds

You are making things up again. You have no fluff support for that one way or the other.

Look at the size of the Eye and compare that to a regular Warp Storm.

You're ignoring the intimate connection between Mankind and Chaos. Chaos IS Mankind. The three elder Powers achieved sentience only after feeding off the unstable psyche of the Human species, assuming they were born during the War in Heaven. Even if they did not, their power rivals that of the Eldar Gods, otherwise the latter could have easily confronted the former and destroyed them the moment they achieved sentience. It doesn't matter whether or not more Eldar lived on Eldar worlds before the Fall. One million sacrifices ignited the Warp Storms that ravage the areas around Cadia. If Erebus sacrificed a trillion Humans, the result would be more catastrophic than all the Craftworlds burning at once.

While an argument can be made that Chaos is mankind, it just isn't that clear cut nor explicitly stated, though it is implied. My entire point isn't that I disagree with you (as that is the interpretation I usually go with) but that you are taking personal interpretation as fact. The generation and nature of the Chaos gods are just not that well defined, nor are the exact circumstances around the opening of the eye of terror. You are taking the most liberal, human centric interpretation as the ONLY interpretation.

My point about the eldar density is, well, the galaxy is a big place. The only reason the eye of terror opened the way it did was because all those deaths and orgies and whatnot. It is very possible that due to humans being more spread out, smaller in number, and less powerful that humanity collapsing into chaos would have only localized effects on human worlds, with little to no cascading warp rifts like those that occurred in during the fall of the eldar. It certainly seems a little presumptuous to assume the remote, far flung, densely packed, and warp shielded worlds of the necrons would all collapse in such a situation.

Those devices can be overloaded. The ones on Cadia nearly burned out during the 13th Black Crusade. How much worse when there's nothing left to moderate the Warp? Or worse, the Emperor truly ascends and takes his place among the gods?

You have no idea how much or if the Emperor is moderating the warp. The ones on Cadia burned out after a major incursion by the united powers of chaos in close proximity to the largest, most powerful warp rift in the galaxy after 60 million years of of damage and no maintenance. Again, there is little to no reason to assume similar situations the galaxy over.

See above post. Oh, and the Rulebook states that the Emperor keeps the Chaos Powers back, implying He does moderate the Warp.

Implying he does by imperial propaganda (which I happen to agree with), yes, but other sources claim he is just a corpse not actually doing anything. That ambiguity is key to the 40k universe.

But really, my issue is with how far you are taking the claim that he keeps the chaos powers back. Even if it is true (again, I do go with that interpretation) it doesn't mean he is necessarily doing it galaxy wide. We know he sealed himself on the golden throne in part to seal off the breach in the golden throne. And that may be all he is doing, holding back the chaos powers from invading Terra. My point is you seem to be assuming the most far reaching interpretation of that fluff is the ONLY possible interpretation of that fluff.

If they could do that, why did they go into dormancy in the first place?

It is intentionally ambiguous. It may have something to do with the completion of their war with the Old Ones, their costly war with the C'Tan, their sudden weakened position in the face of the Eldar and Ork threat, and the fact they realized they didn't HAVE to do that, they could save resources by just waiting out the Eldar. They may have never completed the project (after all, it didn't cut off that area from the warp) and left it when they no longer needed it to defeat the Old Ones.

Or it may be it did exactly what it was supposed to do and hampered Eldar and Old Ones alike during the war in heaven. Or it could be any number of other reasons.

Likely the fact that it currently surrounds and curtails the Eye of Terror is not because that was its original intent. It is far older than the Eye of Terror.

Look at the size of the Eye and compare that to a regular Warp Storm.

What does that have to do with the power of the devices around the eye of terror compared to those on Necron Worlds? The devices around the eye of terror were not build to hold back the Eye of Terror, they are a pre-existing construct. Even if they weren't, how does that give us any indication of how powerful the ones on Necron tomb worlds are? I could write fluff to justify it either way.

They could be weaker. The defenses of Tomb worlds would certainly have more power and infrastructure available, and the Necrons don't seem to skimp on the tech available on the tomb worlds. Certainly one might expect quick fabrication defenses to be inferior to entrenched bastion defenses.

They could be equal. The Necrons may have invested in the best they could both on their tomb worlds and around the eye.

They could be stronger. Perhaps it WAS a massive project, a focus of the Necron Empire, investing their best most powerful tech.

Again, my whole point is you are making too many assumptions. So many of your arguments could be fluffed in numerous ways. It is purposefully left ambiguous.

But the idea that the fall of mankind necessarily means the fall of the Necron seems a stretch. You are taking some very liberal interpretations, all of which need to be true.

riplikash wrote:

You're ignoring the intimate connection between Mankind and Chaos. Chaos IS Mankind. The three elder Powers achieved sentience only after feeding off the unstable psyche of the Human species, assuming they were born during the War in Heaven. Even if they did not, their power rivals that of the Eldar Gods, otherwise the latter could have easily confronted the former and destroyed them the moment they achieved sentience. It doesn't matter whether or not more Eldar lived on Eldar worlds before the Fall. One million sacrifices ignited the Warp Storms that ravage the areas around Cadia. If Erebus sacrificed a trillion Humans, the result would be more catastrophic than all the Craftworlds burning at once.

While an argument can be made that Chaos is mankind, it just isn't that clear cut nor explicitly stated, though it is implied. My entire point isn't that I disagree with you (as that is the interpretation I usually go with) but that you are taking personal interpretation as fact. The generation and nature of the Chaos gods are just not that well defined, nor are the exact circumstances around the opening of the eye of terror. You are taking the most liberal, human centric interpretation as the ONLY interpretation.

My point about the eldar density is, well, the galaxy is a big place. The only reason the eye of terror opened the way it did was because all those deaths and orgies and whatnot. It is very possible that due to humans being more spread out, smaller in number, and less powerful that humanity collapsing into chaos would have only localized effects on human worlds, with little to no cascading warp rifts like those that occurred in during the fall of the eldar. It certainly seems a little presumptuous to assume the remote, far flung, densely packed, and warp shielded worlds of the necrons would all collapse in such a situation.

Those devices can be overloaded. The ones on Cadia nearly burned out during the 13th Black Crusade. How much worse when there's nothing left to moderate the Warp? Or worse, the Emperor truly ascends and takes his place among the gods?

You have no idea how much or if the Emperor is moderating the warp. The ones on Cadia burned out after a major incursion by the united powers of chaos in close proximity to the largest, most powerful warp rift in the galaxy after 60 million years of of damage and no maintenance. Again, there is little to no reason to assume similar situations the galaxy over.

I can accept that. Still leaves Orks and Tyranids. I still believe the former can beat the latter, and will be much stronger for it. Superior tech or not, Necrons cannot defeat the Orks. No one can. Those guys are the cockroaches of the galaxy (sorry for any offense), nothing can wipe them out.

See above post. Oh, and the Rulebook states that the Emperor keeps the Chaos Powers back, implying He does moderate the Warp.

Implying he does by imperial propaganda (which I happen to agree with), yes, but other sources claim he is just a corpse not actually doing anything. That ambiguity is key to the 40k universe.

But really, my issue is with how far you are taking the claim that he keeps the chaos powers back. Even if it is true (again, I do go with that interpretation) it doesn't mean he is necessarily doing it galaxy wide. We know he sealed himself on the golden throne in part to seal off the breach in the golden throne. And that may be all he is doing, holding back the chaos powers from invading Terra. My point is you seem to be assuming the most far reaching interpretation of that fluff is the ONLY possible interpretation of that fluff.

The problem is that the Codexes are too damn unclear. The Chaos Powers are clearly desperate to get their forces to Terra and pull the plug on the Throne, for a variety of reasons. One (my favorite): the Emperor ascends and becomes a god, in the process making the Powers into true Human gods, signalling rebirth for Mankind at last, though at a terrible cost for over ten thousand years. Even Slaanesh is already a Human-based god; he/she/it feeds off Humans more than Eldar these days. Two: they fear that if the Throne fails by itself, they'll be destroyed along with the Human race. Yeah, not liking that one bit.

I can accept that. But that still leaves the Orks and Tyranids- Humans and Eldar will certainly be destroyed/consumed by Chaos in the worst case scenario. I doubt if the Necrons have the numbers to confront them both, and if one has already destroyed the other, then the victor will be much more powerful. Superior tech or not, the Necrons cannot defeat the Orks/Tyranids on their own.

I mostly agree there, yeah. The orks I don't think are such a problem as they don't really focus their power and the galaxy has long survived their threat. While the Orks COULD beat the Necrons (or the Imperium, or anyone else for that matter) that has been the case for millennia. That just isn't how they operate. The newcron codex does imply though that at last the Silent King believes the Tyranids are sufficient threat to require cooperation to defeat, which to me is the biggest indicator of their threat level. Much more so than unverifiable imperial claims like "may have eaten thousands of galaxies" and "these fleets may juts be scout fleets".

The problem is that the Codexes are so damn unclear. The Chaos Powers still fear Him, though, as they seem desperate to send Abaddon to Terra and pull the plug on the Throne. Which could be interpreted in more ways than one. One (my favored scenario) is because they're desperate to complete themselves by having the Emperor complete His ascension and become a god, at which point they cease to be Chaos Powers but true Human Gods. Slaanesh is by all rights already a Human-based god, seeing as he/she/it feeds on Humans more than on Eldar nowadays. Two: they fear if the Throne fails on it's own, the old man's death will destroy them along with the Human race. Not liking this outcome.

Personally I don't consider it a problem. I like the ambiguity. I've always considered it one of the major strengths of hte 40k setting.

riplikash wrote:

I can accept that. But that still leaves the Orks and Tyranids- Humans and Eldar will certainly be destroyed/consumed by Chaos in the worst case scenario. I doubt if the Necrons have the numbers to confront them both, and if one has already destroyed the other, then the victor will be much more powerful. Superior tech or not, the Necrons cannot defeat the Orks/Tyranids on their own.

I mostly agree there, yeah. The orks I don't think are such a problem as they don't really focus their power and the galaxy has long survived their threat. While the Orks COULD beat the Necrons (or the Imperium, or anyone else for that matter) that has been the case for millennia. That just isn't how they operate. The newcron codex does imply though that at last the Silent King believes the Tyranids are sufficient threat to require cooperation to defeat, which to me is the biggest indicator of their threat level. Much more so than unverifiable imperial claims like "may have eaten thousands of galaxies" and "these fleets may juts be scout fleets".

Put like that, I gave to agree. Lord Inquisitor Kryptman would probably get along well with the Silent King, if only because they're the only ones who truly perceive the Tyranid threat. Them and Iyanden, of course. Ironically, the only thing that could possibly save the galaxy from the Tyranids are those green-skinned brutes. Which leaves a horde of dark green, massive Orks once the Tyranids are gone. Not good.

The problem is that the Codexes are so damn unclear. The Chaos Powers still fear Him, though, as they seem desperate to send Abaddon to Terra and pull the plug on the Throne. Which could be interpreted in more ways than one. One (my favored scenario) is because they're desperate to complete themselves by having the Emperor complete His ascension and become a god, at which point they cease to be Chaos Powers but true Human Gods. Slaanesh is by all rights already a Human-based god, seeing as he/she/it feeds on Humans more than on Eldar nowadays. Two: they fear if the Throne fails on it's own, the old man's death will destroy them along with the Human race. Not liking this outcome.

Personally I don't consider it a problem. I like the ambiguity. I've always considered it one of the major strengths of hte 40k setting.

Editing because you edited.

I can accept that. Still leaves Orks and Tyranids. I still believe the former can beat the latter, and will be much stronger for it. Superior tech or not, Necrons cannot defeat the Orks. No one can. Those guys are the cockroaches of the galaxy (sorry for any offense), nothing can wipe them out.

I agree I think the Orks can take on the 'nids. No faction is likely to be able to wipe out the Orks.

The point being, they don't have to. The orks act like a allergy prone immune system. While they do often cause damage to the host body (the galaxy) for they also fight off foreign infections (like the tyranids). Overall it is enough that the 'crons can defend their own worlds against the occasional WAAAGH! or otherwise deflect them with diplomacy or gifts. They don't HAVE to battle the ork race as a whole. It's the same way the Imperium has survived the orks for the past 10k years.

riplikash wrote:Editing because you edited.

I can accept that. Still leaves Orks and Tyranids. I still believe the former can beat the latter, and will be much stronger for it. Superior tech or not, Necrons cannot defeat the Orks. No one can. Those guys are the cockroaches of the galaxy (sorry for any offense), nothing can wipe them out.

I agree I think the Orks can take on the 'nids. No faction is likely to be able to wipe out the Orks.

The point being, they don't have to. The orks act like a allergy prone immune system. While they do often cause damage to the host body (the galaxy) for they also fight off foreign infections (like the tyranids). Overall it is enough that the 'crons can defend their own worlds against the occasional WAAAGH! or otherwise deflect them with diplomacy or gifts. They don't HAVE to battle the ork race as a whole. It's the same way the Imperium has survived the orks for the past 10k years.

I have the nasty feeling that's what the Old Ones designed them to be. To make sure the galaxy doesn't get too stuck in peace as to become completely decadent. Didn't work out with the Eldar though. The problem with 'crons and Orks is that, once the Tyranids are gone, they'll most likely be under one ruler, or several across the galaxy. They might not defeat the 'crons, but the 'crons are gonna take a beating, maybe losing many Tomb Worlds in the process.

Tadashi wrote:
Put like that, I gave to agree. Lord Inquisitor Kryptman would probably get along well with the Silent King, if only because they're the only ones who truly perceive the Tyranid threat. Them and Iyanden, of course. Ironically, the only thing that could possibly save the galaxy from the Tyranids are those green-skinned brutes. Which leaves a horde of dark green, massive Orks once the Tyranids are gone. Not good.

Yes, but again the immune system comparison comes up. Orks are designed to rise to any threat, then subside once more to a manageable level. They would grow in power to combat the Tyranids, but once the threat was gone they would turn on each other and war until they fell back to pre-eldar levels.

It's clear that, left to their own devices, orks do not fall into a run-away growth scenario. They stabilize to manageable levels in absence of a significant threat. In some ways they may be the only "good" think the Old Ones left to the galaxy, protecting it against external threats and keeping any one faction from achieving universal dominance. As you mentioned they are likely the only galactic force (excluding tyranids, who are in fact extra galactic) able to keep Necrons from achieving true dominance. They are even naturally drawn towards major warp disturbances, as their barely controlled space hulks and rokks can only exit the warp where it is already weak, and they often end up helping battle Chaos once they arrive.

Orks have always seemed like a final "tough love" gift to the galaxy from the Old Ones to me. Yes, they do damage, but overall they contribute to a stable and mostly 'safe' galaxy, in the macro sense if not the micro.


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Tadashi wrote:
I have the nasty feeling that's what the Old Ones designed them to be. To make sure the galaxy doesn't get too stuck in peace as to become completely decadent. Didn't work out with the Eldar though. The problem with 'crons and Orks is that, once the Tyranids are gone, they'll most likely be under one ruler, or several across the galaxy. They might not defeat the 'crons, but the 'crons are gonna take a beating, maybe losing many Tomb Worlds in the process.

Looks like we're on the same page there.

I agree in the short term after a Tyranid invasion the Orks will likely do some damage to whichever factions are left. That is ever the case when an immune system rises up to defend the body.

The sore throat, runny nose, fever, nausea, and diarrhea you get when you are sick? That isn't the virus. That's your immune system, causing you damage even as it defends you. But in the end the body recovers.

riplikash wrote: In some ways they may be the only "good" think the Old Ones left to the galaxy, protecting it against external threats and keeping any one faction from achieving universal dominance. As you mentioned they are likely the only galactic force (excluding tyranids, who are in fact extra galactic) able to keep Necrons from achieving true dominance. They are even naturally drawn towards major warp disturbances, as their barely controlled space hulks and rokks can only exit the warp where it is already weak, and they often end up helping battle Chaos once they arrive.

Orks have always seemed like a final "tough love" gift to the galaxy from the Old Ones to me. Yes, they do damage, but overall they contribute to a stable and mostly 'safe' galaxy, in the macro sense if not the micro.

Put like that, yes, their probably the only successful creation of the Old Ones. The Webway is fought over by the Necrons and the Eldar, and almost by the Imperium at one point; their masterpiece, the Eldar, tore a hole in reality and created a fiendish deity in the process. Assuming the old man becomes a god, He's gonna have His work cut out for Him reforming Slaanesh.

Yeah, the Eldar, their 'masterpiece' reminds me of an over ambitious programming project, or a rich mans spoiled child. They lavish on every feature and gift, all their attention, and that is exactly what makes it go sour in the end.

The orks on the other hand make me think more of a master craftsman, gardener, or martial arts trainer (yes, I know I'm mixing a lot of metaphors here). They know when to be tough, which lessons to teach and which not to, when to prune and when to fertilize. Through painful experience they realized giving their best wasn't enough, they had to be wise about what they gave.

That's what I love about the orks. They are both the humor and one of the most suprisingly deep faction in 40k.

riplikash wrote:Much more so than unverifiable imperial claims like "may have eaten thousands of galaxies" and "these fleets may just be scout fleets".

Actually, they have eaten a dozen galaxies. That was made fact in the 5th ed Tyranid codex.