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I've been into 40k since 1993, and i've seen alot of things of the years, but one of the things that has disappeared is the lack of a Space marine Combat knife... I've always thought the standard armament of a full marine is :-

1 x Power Armour Suit (usually Mk7)
2 x Frag Grenade
2 x Krak Grenade
1 x Bolt Pistol
1 x Combat Knife

In addition to the standard loadout he would carry a Personal Weapon (e.g Boltgun / SW / HW ) + Wargear if applicable ( PF / PW / etc etc)

The BP IMHO, the standard fire arm, as everyone gets one (even the HW's troopers).

So why in 40k, do Marines only get a FRAG / KRAK + BP. The Grey Hunters still have the BP + CCW & a Bolt Gun, which I think fits with my traditional take on their armament. When did the Combat knife disappear for the Codex Chapters? Marines should definitely get +1A for having a Knife and Pistol, but currently only Grey Hunters do.



I remember in 2nd edition I had it modelled on lots of my guys, it looks great having the Boltgun on a sling, and the Marine carrying a BP and Knife in a back handed style.

Tyranid Veterans always sport these and look amazing.

Every Soldier on the Battlefield since ancient times has a Combat Knife?

Include knives if you want. They never counted as an extra close combat weapon in any edition of the rules.

But they do for Grey Hunters...It makes no sense, you get +1A for two CCW's and a pistol is one and the knife the other. It seems to me at any rate, they GW just kind of ignored it and alot of gamers just went with the flow. It annoy's me because SM's are not great in H2H, they have staying power and are a tarpit but don't really put out the Attacks, which considering they are superhuman's encased in Armour just never made sense to me. In H2H a tactical squad will tie up a unit for 2 turns, (unless the enemy all have PW's) but they general tie up units and die slowly, the Sgt often doing the damage with his wargear.

It's just always struck me as odd.

Bolt pistols haven't always been standard armament. Or grenades for that matter.

In 3rd edition marines had just a bolter.

In RT all marines had a knife and some sort of rifle (nearly always a bolter). 90% of them would have a bolt pistol as well but only 25% would have a grenade.

If you recall, back in first and second editions, the rule was that every model that wasn't a non-combatant was treated as carrying (at no points cost) a knife, bayonet, big stick or some other "hand weapon", which simply allowed them to attack in close combat with their listed profile, while "improvised weapons" imposed a -1 to-hit modifier.

Said free weapon, however, did not allow an additional attack wielded in combination with anything else - e.g. a Marine with a bolt pistol and combat knife still received only one attack, while a Marine with a bolt pistol and power axe received two.

I presume that the studio did away with that rule for the sake of simplicity, meaning that - as is the case now - carrying two close combat weapons would always grant a bonus attack. Thus Grey Hunters and Chaos Marines with their close combat weapons and bolt pistols get two attacks, while codex Marines, carrying only a bolt pistol, do not. It's slightly unfluffy, but it does at least allow the rules to be slightly clearer.

@ English Assassin ; I agree with what you have said above. It is slightly odd, maybe it will be addressed in 6th ed C:SM but I doubt it.

There are alot of little things broken in C:SM, LSS not Transports for scouts, Thunderfire cannon be destroyed easily and not being treated like a vehicle, but an artillery piece. Devastator HB's or ML's should be 5 or 10 pts. Lots of little tweaks, not major changes that will balance and make other builds more viable.

I just think a BP and Knife with Grenades is a pretty basic loadout and should be copied from Grey Hunters wholesale. Grey Hunters still have the edge due to counter-charge.

The difference is that Grey Hunters are supposed to be choppy, and brutal close assault troops. They do not rely on fast moving assault elements to support them, they close in, fire on, engage and destroy the enemy all on their own.

Tactical marines, on the other hand, are a military multitool. They do everything, but they do not excel at anything. They exist to be supported by other things. Hence why a codex company calls for 6 Tac Squads, 2 Assault, and 2 Devestaor. The Devestator squads suppress suppress/dismount the enemy. While the Tacticals maneuver around and fix/engage the enemy. Meanwhile the assault elements close with and destroy the enemy.
Think of it this way, if every marine functionally has 2 attacks then what would be the point of Assault Marines other than being able to move 12"


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The real game issue is that even with the discounted special and heavy weapons and the built in sergeant, tactical Marines are over costed when compared to Grey Hunters. But that is more of a game balance issue. Lets see: What can we get for free with just 10 bodies.

10 man Tactical Squad....170 pts
ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, LD9
1 Flamer, 1 HB/ML/MM, 1 Chainsword, 10 pistols, 7 bolters, frag/krak for all

10 man Grey Hunter squad....150
ATSKNF, Acute Senses, Counter-attack, LD8
2 Flamer, 10 Chainsword, 10 Pistol, 8 Boltgun, Frag/Krak for all

If you consider the Sgt worth 10 pts (the usual upgrade cost), and the heavy weapon to be worth 10 pts, then they cost the same but simply have different special rules which their authors beleived to have wildly different valuations.

No SM player worth his salt would not equip his sgt with a Power fist. Str 8, insta death is not to be taken lightly. As PF 's come in at a hefty 25pts, it really does become expensive, the PF gives you Anti-MC, Anti-Character and Anti-armour in one upgrade.

Counter attack still gives Grey Hunters a huge edge, even charging Khorne Berserkers into them can be a little iffy, their Base 2A + 1 if they pass the Charge they can do some serious damage to the Berserkers. They probably won't win, but they will make it a phyrric victory and the Khorne Berserkers a spent force for the rest of the game.

Remember at 12" you can Rapid fire the enemy with your GH's, let you enemy then Charge you on their turn, hopefully pass the Counter attack and slam into them. This gives the advantage of rapid firing the "feth" out of the enemy and then following up the survivors when they charge you.

To the Power Fist: How was that relevant to my comparison above. Fine give them both a power fist for 25 pts. The ratio is still the same

I never said I agreed with how it worked, I just said that whoever wrote the dex believes that counterattack is worth less than combat tactics/squads.

Personally I think that they should just swap points values (so 85 pts for a tactical squad with the chance to get 5 more for 15 pts a pop, and 16 pt grey hunters)

I would roll with that, I think that's actually not a bad idea. Counter Attack, is amazing, it's much more useful than Combat Tactics as this is very situationally dependant, but it is very likely you will be charged by an enemy unit at some point in the game.

EDIT - Just looked up in my SW codex and I didn't realise PF's were the same cost, for some reason I thought it was cheaper than C:SM my bad.

The point is that someone, somewhere at GW believes that a single model with the following stuff and an MEQ statline:
ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak
is equal to
ATSKNF Counter Attack, Acute Senses, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chansword, Frag and Krak

Its not right, but that is how someone up in GW HQ sees it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really like the idea as well (I know I put it up, but I was just reflecting on it some more)

You would now have a 160 pt GH pack for 10 guys with all the bells and whistles. and a 160 pt Tactical squad with Sgt, and all its normal bells and whistles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imagine having counter attack and combat tactics....

Lightcavalier wrote:The point is that someone, somewhere at GW believes that a single model with the following stuff and an MEQ statline:
ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak
is equal to
ATSKNF Counter Attack, Acute Senses, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chansword, Frag and Krak

Its not right, but that is how someone up in GW HQ sees it.

They're in different armies and fill different roles. That's the logic, at least; I personally agree that GH should be a point or two more expensive than they are.

Plus, GH only get one free special weapon when they have 10 models in the unit...

All of that was covered in my earlier post about the roles of these two units.

Back on topic, I would still like to see Marines totting 2 CCW as standard, a BP + Combat Blade.

The GH can keep their Special rules, mark of the Wulfren, Wolf banner etc, all I want is my Marines to have the ability to put out 2A's when charged and 3A's on the charge.

For god's sake STERNGUARD are base 2A and they just have a Boltgun and BP.....

Question then....if that is the case then how do you make Assault Marines more assaulty?...As they would have the same number of attacks as a tactical. As well how would you make Devestators less assaulty?


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Sternguard are veterans...same as your Sgt..that is why they have +1 attack. Back in the older books you had to buy that attack for 10pts.

Ah, a good question, it isn't all about stat lines it's about abilites.

How about, all Assault Marines get a Combat shield (6+ inv) as well as options for PW's and SW's in a 5 man squad. So a 10 man assault squad would get 2 SW's (all of them not just flamers and Plasma's, Meltas)? Or maybe instead of Combat Shield, they get Counter Assault, imagining they ignite their jump packs and slam into the unit charging them.

On the Devastator units, maybe you can give them Fire Control, but if they have been charged and assaulted, even if they win the assault they cannot fire their HW's. This represents them dumping their HW's on the ground, as they draw their pistols and knives and fight it out. If they win, they then need to pass a Leadership test to grab their HW's and begin shooting again.

If they fail, they cannot fire their HW's unit the next player turn?

How about that for synergy, without boosting stats.

EDIT - It also has the advantage of you wanting to protect your HW's squads with screening forces. I play with scouts alot and I enjoy the fact that they can pour out alot of WS 3 attacks on the charge. Plus the sgt with a PF and Shotgun is actually quite a good little leader, if points abound, I give him a Combi-Weapon.

I've also heard from a friend when I was at Maelstrom playing a Tournament last weekend, that the Marines will receive a 4th SW option, I am hoping it's the grenade launcher on SPACE MARINE game. Good debate thus far, I like it when the debate is intelligent.

What about giving assault marines Hit and Run...keeping the option for a PW or SW per 5 dudes.
If they give up their jump packs for the free rhino they get combat shields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But definately make it a choice on the PW/SW front. So you cannot have a squad with 2 flamers and 2 power swords and a thunder hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Vengance Grenade Launcher is a fun little toy...I wonder how it would play out on the table...but that is for another time.

Lightcavalier wrote:Question then....if that is the case then how do you make Assault Marines more assaulty?...As they would have the same number of attacks as a tactical. As well how would you make Devestators less assaulty?

That's just the problem I was pondering. I realise that we're getting somewhat outside the bounds of the original question, but I'd solve that by giving chainswords an AP value and charging a point for them, separating them again from the generic CCW. So far as Devastators go, the only way to really sort it out in rules terms would be to reintroduce the encumbrance rule from 1st and 2nd editions, and have it impose -1A on models toting heavy weapons, with Relentless ignoring it.

But then I essentially just want Warhammer 40,000 to be a slightly-streamlined version of 2nd Ed/Necromunda, with to-hit modifiers in place of cover saves and save modifiers in place of AP, so...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mwnciboo wrote:Ah, a good question, it isn't all about stat lines it's about abilites.

How about, all Assault Marines get a Combat shield (6+ inv) as well as options for PW's and SW's in a 5 man squad. So a 10 man assault squad would get 2 SW's (all of them not just flamers and Plasma's, Meltas)? Or maybe instead of Combat Shield, they get Counter Assault, imagining they ignite their jump packs and slam into the unit charging them.

On the Devastator units, maybe you can give them Fire Control, but if they have been charged and assaulted, even if they win the assault they cannot fire their HW's. This represents them dumping their HW's on the ground, as they draw their pistols and knives and fight it out. If they win, they then need to pass a Leadership test to grab their HW's and begin shooting again.

Hmm. I agree with your logic, but I'm not desperately keen on either of those options, the former because giving Assault Marines combat shields would fundamentally change what they have always been - ie Marines with a bolt pistol and chainsword, and the latter because it's overly fiddly. Fire Control is another kettle of fish entirely - either it shouldn't be there in the rules at all or all heavy weapon squads should have it.

Nice idea on hit and run. I wouldn't want the 2 x Power Swords + TH etc it all gets OP and I can see you are steering clear of that and I agree heartily, there are better ways to make a unit effective than upgrading Wargear or statlines.

I have always like lightning claws, because they get alot of attacks, re-roll to wound and are PW's but the price needs to be high on that stuff.

If the Vengeance was in there, maybe an Assault Krak or Frag option? Like the Astartes one on the Scout bikes? I actually have some good results rapid firing krak grenades from 3 Astartes grenade launchers on Scout bikes, especially on the rear armour of vehicles, or even elite units.

@English Assassin, I'm blue skies thinking right now, I'm not overly sold myself, I'm just exploring options. I like Fire control, Long fangs get it, it's better than Signum, the ability to split fire is great, especially if your Dev's have AT and Anti-Infantry, e.g. 2 Lascannon and 2 Heavy Bolters.....

In a universe in which Tactical marines have 2 attacks I would gladly pay 18 pts for Assault Marines with Hit and Run. I would, howerver, allow them to take melta bombs at 5ppm like back in the day, and expand the SW options.

mwnciboo wrote:@English Assassin, I'm blue skies thinking right now, I'm not overly sold myself, I'm just exploring options. I like Fire control, Long fangs get it, it's better than Signum, the ability to split fire is great, especially if your Dev's have AT and Anti-Infantry, e.g. 2 Lascannon and 2 Heavy Bolters.....

The problem with Fire Control isn't the rule itself, it's that only Long Fangs get it (that they don't pay for it either is also an issue, but not the one that's relevant); giving the same skill to Devastators would not make it any less unbalanced or illogical that Havocs, Dark Reapers, etc. still don't have it.

It makes me laugh, because Space Marines despite their mental abilities, superhuman reflexes etc, as a team can only fire at one target at a time. I understand what you are saying, but it is time in 40k we overhauled HW's rules, especially infantry portable ones. Tanks have a low situational awareness compared with infantry, and infantry with HW's probably have the best tactical awareness and tactical acumen. It would be nice if infantry across the races got a nice boost.

But instead GW are keen on making £35 flyer models, so we all have lots of flying machines.

My current feeling on 40k is that it's all about CC and Characters. We all talk about Mech, Mobility and Melta, but actually it's more like Mephiston, Abbaddon, Lysander, Draigo, Eldrad, Doom of Malantai, imotek, creed and Ghazkull. More focus on the troops and less on elites.

I think one of the ways to rectify this, is to overhaul the troops and their abilities. Tactical squads are easy because they are the most Iconic Troops choice, well between them and an IG platoon.

mwnciboo wrote:It makes me laugh, because Space Marines despite their mental abilities

I don't recall anything enhancing their mental abilities. They are physically powerful, but not any more intelligent/smarter than anyone else.

I understand what you are saying, but it is time in 40k we overhauled HW's rules, especially infantry portable ones. Tanks have a low situational awareness compared with infantry, and infantry with HW's probably have the best tactical awareness and tactical acumen. It would be nice if infantry across the races got a nice boost.

This I really agree with. More than anything, GW really needs to start giving infantry more board interaction. In other games infantry can spot for heavy weapons, split fire, dig in to make themselves *extremely* resilient, gap wire and minefields, plant obstacles, etc, whereas in 40k none of this exists except as oddball-patch special rules.

I play FLAMES OF WAR and Infantry are the absolute king of the battlefield. If they Dig In you need overwhelming firepower and combat power to shift them and you will suffer incredible casualties in doing so.

Gameplay-wise I may agree to it, as Tactical Marines are supposed to 'good at all, masters of nouthing' jack-of-all trades as Lightcavalier said earlier. But I do find it rather annoying how CSM are better just because they remembered to bring their bolt pistol+CCW with them rather than because of somekind of Chaotic rage or extra limbs etc.

Vaktathi wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I understand what you are saying, but it is time in 40k we overhauled HW's rules, especially infantry portable ones. Tanks have a low situational awareness compared with infantry, and infantry with HW's probably have the best tactical awareness and tactical acumen. It would be nice if infantry across the races got a nice boost.

This I really agree with. More than anything, GW really needs to start giving infantry more board interaction. In other games infantry can spot for heavy weapons, split fire, dig in to make themselves *extremely* resilient, gap wire and minefields, plant obstacles, etc, whereas in 40k none of this exists except as oddball-patch special rules.

I agree entirely with both of you; I've been playing less and less Warhammer 40,000 over the last few years, and that trend won't change until the rules are thoroughly overhauled and rebalanced. Unfortunately, the studio's mentality remains one of "patching" rather than addressing the game's core problems.

I think 40k would be alot better if squads could split fire. Every other wargame I've played(except Fantesy) allows you to split your fire.

Its not a difficult thing to do or anything, you just roll dice seperately.

As for assaulting, you should be able to assault whatever you want. Just because you intended to assault X but it died to your shooting doesn't mean your soldiers are going to stop advancing, they will instead attack Y.

I think that Infantry/Bikes/Jump Inf etc should be able to split fire...as should Squadrons of Vehicles/Artillery...but individual vehicles should not be able to split fire (except maybe pintle mounted defensive weapons)

I've often liked the idea of "gun and run" assaults. E.g you assault the ork unit ahead of you, running within 6" of the shoota mob, you shoot gangsta style to the side as you pass the shoota mob you fire a few shots into them as you assault the other mob. So suppresion on the move, Defensive fire in Flames of War is very good at simulating this.

I also think some race's like Chaos, DE or Orks, should be allowed to fire into their own ranks. E.g If a Tactical Squad is in hand to hand with a bunch of Orks, the orks would just blow them all up and laugh, as would DE and Chaos. They don't care, life has a meaningless value to them, Marines and IG, eldar would never do this due to the honour code or that feeling of fraternity and bond of martial conduct.

In return these races should get a Heroic Sacrifice rule e.g One member of the unit sacrifices himself to allow the rest of the unit to break off e.g Blows up a grenade belt, or demo charge, overloads a stormshield, goes down swinging. This would make for more swirling melee's and much less predictable assaults.

None of these are bad ideas per se, but allowing firing into melee or allowing "heroic sacrifices" to break off from melee would very significantly change the game's balance, necessitating across-the-board rebalancing of rules and points costs.