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Something in mind when I read the codex:

HQ

- Rune Priest (100)*
+ living lightning, jaws of thw world wolf

Elite

- Wolf Guard Pack (370)
+ 3 wolf guards with combi-melta, bolt pistol**
+ 4 wolf guards with ccw, bolt pistol
+ wolf guard with bolter, bolt psitol***
+ wolf guard in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher
+ wolf guard in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher, power fist
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Wolf Guard Pack (370)
+ 3 wolf guards with combi-melta, bolt pistol**
+ 4 wolf guards with ccw, bolt pistol
+ wolf guard with bolter, bolt psitol***
+ wolf guard in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher
+ wolf guard in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher, power fist
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

Troops

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

- Grey Hunter Pack (115)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Rhino

Heavy Support

- Long Fang Pack (190)***
+ 4 long fangs with missile launchers
+ squad leader
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Long Fang Pack (190)***
+ 4 long fangs with missile launchers
+ squad leader
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Long Fang Pack (90)*
+ 3 long fangs with missile launchers
+ squad leader

= 2000 points

* Rune Priest joins 3 missiles team and go pew pew
** Each combi-melta Wolf Guards accompany Grey Hunters
*** Each bolter Wolf Guards sit back with each Long Fang packs

Long Fangs and Rune Priest sit back and pew pew,
Wolf Guard Packs and las/plas Razorbacks move up to 6" and pew pew,
while Grey Hunters in Rhinos advance.

Unfortunately, this only packs with 19 missiles (plus d6 Str.7 shots if that counts), 4 las/plas, and 6 mobile melta hunter units.

Replies would be apprieciated though.

Your Long Fangs don't need wolf guard with bolters. If you must add a wolf guard to your long fang units, put the WG Terminator with CML's in there. That way, you're shooting more missiles with those units.

So for example. Discard both WG squads entirely (save 740 points) and take just one WG squad like this one

6 WG + Combi-melta
3 WG Term + Cyclone ML

Then split one WG to each of your other units - Combi-meltas go to Grey Hunter packs, Cyclone ML's go to Long Fangs. Use the points you save to make your grey hunter squads bigger (hence harder to kill) and make all of your LF squads full strength with Las/Plas Razorbacks.

If you still have points left, add standards to your GH squads or PF's to the WG w/ Combi-meltas.

Consider dropping one GH squad if you need the points to make the others full strength (9 man + WG).

Grugknuckle wrote:Your Long Fangs don't need wolf guard with bolters. If you must add a wolf guard to your long fang units, put the WG Terminator with CML's in there. That way, you're shooting more missiles with those units.

So for example. Discard both WG squads entirely (save 740 points) and take just one WG squad like this one

6 WG + Combi-melta
3 WG Term + Cyclone ML

Except for the fact that this is completely illegal to do.

SW Codex pg. 30 - 5th Bullet under 'Options'.
"For every five models in the squad, one Wolf Guard model in Terminator armour may choose one of the following:
Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher"

Meaning, with a max squad size of 10 you're only allowed 2 of those weapons. Your squad is at 9, therefor only able to take 1 special heavy weapon.

Note: Emphasis is my own for clarification purposes only.

To OP, I think you should take a full 6-man (5 heavy weapons, 1 squad leader) in every long fang squad. They are the best bang for the buck and should be used like so.

Wolf guard should not be with Long Fang except for CML in terminator armour wolf guard.

I also don't think putting Rune Priest with Long Fang is a good idea. He belongs in the mid field so you can cast power while negating everybody's psychic power. If you put him in the back, you are letting GK and Eldar do all their dirty tricks.

Fexor wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:Your Long Fangs don't need wolf guard with bolters. If you must add a wolf guard to your long fang units, put the WG Terminator with CML's in there. That way, you're shooting more missiles with those units.

So for example. Discard both WG squads entirely (save 740 points) and take just one WG squad like this one

6 WG + Combi-melta
3 WG Term + Cyclone ML

Except for the fact that this is completely illegal to do.

SW Codex pg. 30 - 5th Bullet under 'Options'.
"For every five models in the squad, one Wolf Guard model in Terminator armour may choose one of the following:
Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher"

Meaning, with a max squad size of 10 you're only allowed 2 of those weapons. Your squad is at 9, therefor only able to take 1 special heavy weapon.

Note: Emphasis is my own for clarification purposes only.

Unless of course he means 1 CML and two termies without, if not that is illegal for the reasons stated

Young Logan

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with my peers above on the Cyclone Missile Launchers. Keeping them seperate gives you the ability to hit other targets and pulls fire from the.Long Fangs. Also, putting a Bolter Guard with the Fangs is the best use of a body (9 Missiles coming out of a Long Fang squad isn't scary if it runs off of the table).

Overall, I like the way the list looks but I would put the Rune Priest with the Grey Hunters to push the middle and extend the range of the Runic Staff as well as allow you to use Jaws.

Best of luck!

Young_Logan wrote:

Fexor wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:Your Long Fangs don't need wolf guard with bolters. If you must add a wolf guard to your long fang units, put the WG Terminator with CML's in there. That way, you're shooting more missiles with those units.

So for example. Discard both WG squads entirely (save 740 points) and take just one WG squad like this one

6 WG + Combi-melta
3 WG Term + Cyclone ML

Except for the fact that this is completely illegal to do.

SW Codex pg. 30 - 5th Bullet under 'Options'.
"For every five models in the squad, one Wolf Guard model in Terminator armour may choose one of the following:
Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher"

Meaning, with a max squad size of 10 you're only allowed 2 of those weapons. Your squad is at 9, therefor only able to take 1 special heavy weapon.

Note: Emphasis is my own for clarification purposes only.

Unless of course he means 1 CML and two termies without, if not that is illegal for the reasons stated

Young Logan

I'm simply going off what he said.

1 squad
9 guys
3 CML's

That is not legal. There is no leaving out 2 of them, I quoted the post for a reason. Your obfuscating my point without a clear reason, because I'm not arguing what he could do, I'm simply pointing out the error in his statement as it was said. Because I don't want the OP to use wrong information when building his list.

Meaning, with a max squad size of 10 you're only allowed 2 of those weapons. Your squad is at 9, therefor only able to take 1 special heavy weapon.

Note: Emphasis is my own for clarification purposes only.

Aha! See, I never take Termies w/ CML's so that's why I wouldn't know. I guess I should've picked up the codex before I posted. Fexor was right - I was mistaken.

But that just makes my point for me. It is a waste to take 8 WG with bolt pistols and CCW just so you can get a couple of extra models with cyclone missile launchers. Really? Why not just get some Land Speeder Typhoons?

Unholy_Martyr wrote:I'm going to go ahead and disagree with my peers above on the Cyclone Missile Launchers. Keeping them seperate gives you the ability to hit other targets and pulls fire from the.Long Fangs. Also, putting a Bolter Guard with the Fangs is the best use of a body (9 Missiles coming out of a Long Fang squad isn't scary if it runs off of the table).

Except that Long Fangs have leadership 9 already. They don't need a WG to give them better leadership. ALSO Long Fangs can split fire. If you add a WG w/ CML into that squad and the pack leader is still alive, he can still shoot at another target if you want it to.PLUS if you keep the terminator separate, it becomes another kill point. So why would you do that?

Grugknuckle wrote:

Meaning, with a max squad size of 10 you're only allowed 2 of those weapons. Your squad is at 9, therefor only able to take 1 special heavy weapon.

Note: Emphasis is my own for clarification purposes only.

Aha! See, I never take Termies w/ CML's so that's why I wouldn't know. I guess I should've picked up the codex before I posted. Fexor was right - I was mistaken.

But that just makes my point for me. It is a waste to take 8 WG with bolt pistols and CCW just so you can get a couple of extra models with cyclone missile launchers. Really? Why not just get some Land Speeder Typhoons?

No sweat Grug, I wasn't trying to be a hard arse, just assist the OP. I understood where you were trying to go with it. But you can make good use of a WG squad that is large. Consider the following:

Wolf Guard (10) - 440pts - 505pts (varying on gear selection/options)
+Combi-Weapon/Stormbolter, CC Weapon (ie. Wolf Claw/Power Weapon) x 5
+Power Fist x 3
+TDA & CML x 2
+Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback (your choice)

Now what this allows you to do, is have a 5 man retinue for an IC with a transport, add 3 WG as Battle Leaders to 3 squads of your choice and still get 2 CML's to add to your Long Fangs. WG are very versatile but have that annoying habit of getting very expensive too.

Fexor wrote: Consider the following:

Wolf Guard (10) - 440pts - 505pts (varying on gear selection/options)
+Combi-Weapon/Stormbolter, CC Weapon (ie. Wolf Claw/Power Weapon) x 5
+Power Fist x 3
+TDA & CML x 2
+Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback (your choice)

Now what this allows you to do, is have a 5 man retinue for an IC with a transport, add 3 WG as Battle Leaders to 3 squads of your choice and still get 2 CML's to add to your Long Fangs. WG are very versatile but have that annoying habit of getting very expensive too.

Yeah I could see that build and I wouldn't be opposed to in principle. What I WAS opposed to was paying 18 / model for a WG with just BP's and CCW when you could get GH's for 15 / model. It's fine if you're going to take more wolf guard. But don't waste the opportunity to give them some killy wargear. Just remember to keep it within reason because, like Fexor said, they get expensive.

I mean, if you're just taking a 20 wolf guard so that you can arm 4 of them with cyclone ML's, I think you're wasting your points. Look at it this way...If you want missile spam, it would be more cost effective to take 4 Land Speeder Typhoons (320 points). At least then you'll also get 4 heavy bolters instead of 4 storm bolters. And you wont have extra dudes in power armor that you have to figure out what to do with.

@Grug

Why keep the Terminator seperate? Those Wolf Guard are always going to be sitting seperate. Creating another 2 fire bases is a far better use of those Terminators than making a 115 point unit cost 241 points. Putting a Wolg Guard with the Long Fangs isn't about more missiles, it's killing off another 18 point model as opposed to chosing between a squad leader or a missile launcher. Those Wolf Guard that don't get broken up sit with the Cylcones making 2a feaux Long Fang squads giving you the ability to strike at 8 targets as opposed to 6.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:@Grug

Why keep the Terminator seperate? Those Wolf Guard are always going to be sitting seperate. Creating another 2 fire bases is a far better use of those Terminators than making a 115 point unit cost 241 points. Putting a Wolg Guard with the Long Fangs isn't about more missiles, it's killing off another 18 point model as opposed to chosing between a squad leader or a missile launcher. Those Wolf Guard that don't get broken up sit with the Cylcones making 2a feaux Long Fang squads giving you the ability to strike at 8 targets as opposed to 6.

I see what you mean by having the WG be more "wounds" for your CML. I just think they're expensive wounds. It's just my opinion, but I feel it's best to attach the WG'c with the CML's as leaders to the long fangs. He can still shoot at other targets because the unit he is a member of can split fire.

I mean...some body has to close with the enemy and do the dirty work. Wolf Guard are good at that. It seems like a waste to have them sit there soaking up wounds and there are cheaper ways to get missile launchers. I'm just sayin''.

@Unholy : Off the topic - your autocannon dread looks bad-ass.

OK ... last edit:
First, a good opponent isn't going to give you the opportunity to shoot at 6 targets, let alone 8. So the issue isn't "how many targets can I shoot at?", but rather "how many targets must he destroy before the missiles stop raining down?" And that's the strong part of your strategy. But if that's the game, then why not just attach him to a unit of 5 grey hunters? They'll do the same job for less points.

Second, before you start maxing out two wolf guard squads just to get more missile units, you should really max out your Long Fangs first, MUCH more cost effective. Three units of 6 Long Fangs with 5 ML's each costs 420 points. Want more firepower? Give them razorbacks. Want more still? Now consider the cyclone terminators, but for my points I'm buying land speeder Typhoons.

@Grug: 18 points for WG is very cheap because they have 2 attack base and their powerfist is 5pt cheaper than on GH. WG is a cheap powerfist option comparing to many other codices.

leohart wrote:@Grug: 18 points for WG is very cheap because they have 2 attack base and their powerfist is 5pt cheaper than on GH. WG is a cheap powerfist option comparing to many other codices.

Oh I totally agree. But not if you park the whole unit in your deployment zone and never move it! You don't want to use WG in power armor with NO wargear just to be meat shields for a missile launcher. If you're going to get WG, then take advantage of all of the cheap wargear!

Honestly, I don't see the point of having more than 12 Missile Launchers in any given list as it becomes a point of diminishing returns. For the other 200 points between speeders and Long Fangs you can get more melta and bodies which will actually be effective. Additionally, you don't want to be stuck holding your dick when King Tut comes flying through on his boogie board of doom that laughs off Missile Launchers. More Lascannons and melta I say, but for those who want Missile Launchers, spread them out before you get stuck with 6-7 missiles being used to kill 2 Venoms.

I agree with Unholy_Martyr on the diminishing values of Str 8 missiles.

Throw a couple of Lascannon and Plasma cannon in there and you see the utility increase fast. Ever since I start to have 2-4 plasma cannons in my long fangs, my opponents have been much less likely to deep strike. Even if they do, they no longer pop my transport on the way in.

Kill my 75 points Razorback and I am going to wipe your entire squad with one plasma cannon shot.

Yes more melta. MORE MELTA! ahhhhh hahahaHAHAHA!

But seriously - you're dead right about too many missiles. I think you can get all the ML's you need with three LF squads. For example, you can see my list here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451412.page

But I thought we were commenting on the OP's list? He seems to want lots of terminators with cyclone missile launchers.

We were but we are just stating opinions that may guide the OP's thought process.

Here's an another try with some minor tweaks:

HQ

- Rune Priest (110)*
+ living lightning, jaws of thw world wolf, chooser of the slain

Elite

- Wolf Guard Pack (360)*
+ 3 wolf guards with combi-melta, bolt pistol**
+ 5 wolf guards with ccw, bolt pistol
+ 2 wolf guards in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Wolf Guard Pack (360)
+ 3 wolf guards with combi-melta, bolt pistol**
+ 5 wolf guards with ccw, bolt pistol
+ 2 wolf guards in terminator armour with cyclone missile launcher
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

Troops

- Grey Hunter Pack (155)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Grey Hunter Pack (155)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Grey Hunter Pack (120)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback

- Grey Hunter Pack (120)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback

- Grey Hunter Pack (120)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback

- Grey Hunter Pack (120)**
+ 4 grey hunters
+ grey hunter with meltagun
+ Razorback

Heavy Support

- Long Fang Pack (190)
+ 4 long fangs with missile launchers
+ squad leader
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

- Long Fang Pack (190)
+ 4 long fangs with missile launchers
+ squad leader
+ Razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun

= 2000 points

* Rune Priest goes here
** Each combi-melta guard joins grey hunter pack as usual

Grugknuckle wrote:[ It is a waste to take 8 WG with bolt pistols and CCW just so you can get a couple of extra models with cyclone missile launchers. Really? Why not just get some Land Speeder Typhoons?

There are a few reasons to take the CML instead of typhoons.
* CMLs buried in squads are very hard to kill. Especially compared to a AV 10 vehicle. A single psydread barrage has ~66% of destroying the the typhoon in a single barrage. That same psydread could shoot the buried CML termie all game and not even place a wound on it as it will kill ~1 marine a turn.

* Your wolf guard squad does not need to be a waste. You can use them as a speed bump. In my current 1500 point list I have 5 wolf guard with BP/CCW and 3 with terminator armor. The goal is to act as a speed bump for incoming assault armies, or to rush forward and threaten targets.

* You don't need to move both CMLs out. Why not just move out 1 CML into a GH squad and keep the other in a WG squad, giving you 9 bullet catchers?

In summary, going with CMLs for your fire support is to build an attrition based army. Its similar to a green-tide theory, where you give 15 or 18 point models to kill. Since your MLs cant be stopped, you might only be shooting 8-12 ML a turn, but your going to be shooting them all game long, where typhoons or long fangs can be silenced by turn 3.

Grugknuckle wrote:Except that Long Fangs have leadership 9 already. They don't need a WG to give them better leadership. ALSO Long Fangs can split fire. If you add a WG w/ CML into that squad and the pack leader is still alive, he can still shoot at another target if you want it to.PLUS if you keep the terminator separate, it becomes another kill point. So why would you do that?

I like the idea of adding a wolf guard to the LF squad.
* First, its another model that can take the incoming fire. When that multi-laser shot hits you, you can distrube another shot onto a bullet catcher before you put them on a ML. This helps to keep your fire support base around for a longer period.

* If you add a terminator with PF to the LF squad, you have an assault threat added to the squad. When facing a normal LF squad, I will assault with my bikes army, or assault from the side with scouts. Even if I can't beat the LF, I know I can tie them up for a few turns, which takes them out of the game. Now, if there is a PF termie in the squad (since its the same cost to put him in termie armor with a PF, why not?), that assault option becomes much less feasable!

Overall, you see a theme here. With wolf guard, your trading firepower for durability.

The second list is definitely improved but I feel that taking a combi-weapon means you already lose one attack (WG does not have tri-weapon). You might as well make good use of it by taking a powerfist. This is especially so for Wolf Guard because their powerfist is 5 pts cheaper than other.

Plus rerolling 1s when you wound on a 2 with powerfist is AWESOME.

unless im mistaken, or you already have 2000 pts as acording to the new rulebook, U CANNOT TAKE 6 TROOPS CHOICES, wth are you thinking you only have 3 slots.........and you cannot ally with yourself

jakingo wrote:unless im mistaken, or you already have 2000 pts as acording to the new rulebook, U CANNOT TAKE 6 TROOPS CHOICES, wth are you thinking you only have 3 slots.........and you cannot ally with yourself

You are mistaken.
Check your books, 6 troops are the standard FOC since 3rd edition.
There are no allies in this list, it is a troop heavy list, which for MEQ has always done well for me.