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Necrons

- If the triach stalker hits more than one unit with it's large blast or flamer template are they both marked for the targetting relay rule?

- Can deathmarks with attached crypteks deep strike?

Imperial Guard

- If a valkyrie/vendetta arrives from reserve must the entire hull of the vehicle be on the table? Or only it's oval base? Because moving in at combat speed keeps the vehicle's tail hanging off the table.

The entire hull must be on, meaning it MUST move >6"

For the IG question, that has been debated in this subforum quite a bit.

The general consensus is that yes, you must get the entire model onto the table including the tail and all wings. This means you must move on going over 6" meaning you can either fly on flat out and gain the cover save or move under 12" and fire one lascannon.

I'm not fully up to speed on all the new Necron rules, but I'll hazard a guess @ the first question - I would say that both squads hit are now 'marked' for other Necron shooting.

Unless the Cryptek has Deep Strike in his special abilities, he cannot Deep Strike - a squad that has Infiltrate can no longer Infiltrate if it has an IC attached that cannot Infiltrate.

Yes, the Valkyrie/Vendetta has to be completely on the table, not just the base.

~Vryce

Akaiyou wrote:- If the triach stalker hits more than one unit with it's large blast or flamer template are they both marked for the targetting relay rule?

You can only target one unit. So, I would say no, only the unit you targeted can be affected by Targeting Relay.

Akaiyou wrote:- Can deathmarks with attached crypteks deep strike?

No, per the FAQ, which you can find here

Akaiyou wrote:- If a valkyrie/vendetta arrives from reserve must the entire hull of the vehicle be on the table? Or only it's oval base? Because moving in at combat speed keeps the vehicle's tail hanging off the table.

Yes, the entire model must be on the table. A lot of people will argue this, though. The vehicle rules do not make any exceptions for skimmers and measuring from the hull.

I've heard repeatedly that if the particle shredder hits multiple squads, you are twin-linked against all of them.

Crypteks with Veil of Darkness can deep strike with deathmarks, however any others cannot.

There are 2 parts to the placement of the Triarch's token:
1) Shoot at.
2) Hit.

We will take them in reverse order:

Hit: every model(and by extension every unit those models are contained in)under a template are hit.

Shoot at: this must mean "targeting" as the phrasing is in several other rules or descriptions of rules from the BRB through the Codices and expansions. Templates do have a "Target unit"

So for the token; only the unit targeted will receive it, not any ancillary units that can also be hit.

Deathmarks can only deepstrike in with a cryptek if said cryptek has a veil of darkness; as such a unit with a cryptek cannot make use of Ethereal Interception(also the unit cannot be placed into Deepstrike reserve, only normal reserve and then their Cryptek uses the veil in the normal movement of moving on from reserves).

For the Valk/Vend: it is the whole model per the BRB FAQ; therefore if they are moving in from reserves or First turn DOW they must move at Cruising speed or faster(might as well flat out for the Obscured). A Rocket pod Valk can still fire all guns, but the Vend only gets 1 TL-Las.

Thanks for the quick responses fellas, good to say i'm playing this all correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 parts to the placement of the Triarch's token:
1) Shoot at.
2) Hit.

We will take them in reverse order:

Hit: every model(and by extension every unit those models are contained in)under a template are hit.

Shoot at: this must mean "targeting" as the phrasing is in several other rules or descriptions of rules from the BRB through the Codices and expansions. Templates do have a "Target unit"

So for the token; only the unit targeted will receive it, not any ancillary units that can also be hit.

Deathmarks can only deepstrike in with a cryptek if said cryptek has a veil of darkness; as such a unit with a cryptek cannot make use of Ethereal Interception(also the unit cannot be placed into Deepstrike reserve, only normal reserve and then their Cryptek uses the veil in the normal movement of moving on from reserves).

For the Valk/Vend: it is the whole model per the BRB FAQ; therefore if they are moving in from reserves or First turn DOW they must move at Cruising speed or faster(might as well flat out for the Obscured). A Rocket pod Valk can still fire all guns, but the Vend only gets 1 TL-Las.

Interesting so we have a disagreeing opinion on the triach stalker rules, anyone else agree with him? So far majority opinion seems to be that all units hit are marked.

While i can see the sense in what you say with being the target, but the rules say it activates once the triach stalker scores a hit on the target and the rules do allow for blast weapons to target two units, sort of like assault rules allowing you a multiple assault where your furious charge would activate against both squads assaulted not just one upon assaulting. So given that blast weapons can be placed to hit multiple units as well giving you a main target and secondary targets if you hit them all why would that not activate the relay targeting?

Furthermore given that a blast weapon scatters quite easily to make it so that you ONLY mark the initial target becomes quite difficult to actually get the special rule working since you can easily scatter and hit something else. Seems to me like it wouldn't be the RAI of the rule to work in such a manner where if you scatter off and hits something else nothign is marked.

Since it specifically refers to the unit it shot at (aka targeted) only that unit would be affected.

Some would disagree that shot at means only the targeted unit. Reference the recent JotWW thread for that.

Akaiyou wrote:and the rules do allow for blast weapons to target two units,

I am pretty sure this is incorrect. You can only target one unit unless specifically stated otherwise. Blast weapons have no exception, they must be placed over a model in the targeted unit, they may hit other models in the same unit or other units, but they only target the unit the model it was placed over is in. Template weapons must cover as many models as possible in the target unit, but can also hit models in a different unit. Both types of weapon need a target unit, I believe that is the only unit that can be affected by Targeting Array.

Akaiyou: I missed you auto-appended response, so sorry for the delay in counter response.

The triarch rules, as I have stated, have 2 parts: "hit", and "Shot at"(well "shoots at"; but still same thing).
Quoth the Necron-dex(page 39, targeting relay): "If a Triach stalker shoots at an enemy unit and manages at least one hit, place a counter or coin next to the target."

This is very different than just "Hitting an enemy unit"; the 3 elements are Shooting at the unit, hitting the unit, and placing the counter on the target.

When you are shooting from a standard unit, how many targets are you allowed to attempt to shoot at?

Rigeld; this is also where template weapons differ from the recent JotWW thread(also the very nature of the targeting relay rule is different from that discussion):

The very first line of placing the template also shows how they are different from Multiple assaults: you must get as many models from the target unit under the template as possible.

Multiple assaults never target the ancillary units for assault; they simply reach and involve those units as well(you must, for example, first reach the unit you shot at before you attempt to add extra units into the assault).

The rules also do not allow for template weapons to target more than 1 unit; you only target the 1 main unit(and must get as many models as possible under the template), it just so happens that any models from other units that are also under the template also get hit.

You are going off reservation with the Blasts; Blasts absolutely target the unit they are initially placed over(center hole, not any part of the blast marker). And if you scatter completely off your target unit, but still hit a different unit; you have certainly missed your targeted unit(the unit you shot at).

Ok i dunno why everyone is referencing 'template' (a.k.a flamer) weapons in their counter-argument. I know how flamers/template work and often point out to other people that they must hit as many models as possible in their target unit.

Thus, if you guys would kindly re-read my previous post i was specifically speaking of blast weapons which let you place the blast over any part of a model in the target unit's base allowing for you to hit models from other units as well.

IMO this would work the same way as if you were shooting a pinning weapon at them and got casualties on several units from the blast, everyone would have to take a pinning check.

But Kommisar Kel you do bring a very solid valid point. So if we are going off literally what is written there it says

"If a Triach stalker shoots at an enemy unit and manages at least one hit, place a counter or coin next to the target."

If you break that down as you did in your post the more 'literal' interpretation is that

A: You shot at your target
B: You must score a hit
C: A counter is placed next to target upon successful completion of B.

However point B doesn't specify that the hit MUST be from the target unit, it simply says 'get a hit' correct me if i'm wrong but if we go by RAW if I shoot a blast at a unit and it scatters and scores a hit somewhere else this still qualifies towards marking the initial target as per RAW.

This is kind of frustrating as I disagree with both of these interpretations and my opinion is that it's intended to affect multiple units with the blast version otherwise its pretty useless to ever consider.

In any case i'll play it on the safe side until an FAQ justifying the mulitple hits is released.

I do think my point is valid though word for word it simply says choose a inital target, get a hit, mark initial target.

Your first post said large blast or Flamer Template.

Since the only one that could possibly be debatable is the Template, that is the one we chose to discuss.

You only shoot a Blast marker at 1 target unit; if you scatter off of the unit that you target, you have missed the unit you are shooting at.

Your point B is incorrect. The literal breakdown for it is:
B) You hit the unit you shot at.

So taking the whole sentence again:
"If a Triach stalker shoots at an enemy unit and manages at least one hit, place a counter or coin next to the target."

A)your triarch stalker shoots at an enemy unit.
B) your triarch stalker manages at least one hit on the enemy unit the triarch stalker shot at.
C) a counter is placed next to the targeted unit.

With the "shoots at an enemy unit" and "manages at least one hit" being separated by the word "And" and that "and" not having any associated punctuation, but the punctuation occurring after "hit"; it means that the hits are referring to the shot at unit, and that the target in the latter half of the combined sentence is again talking about the unit at which the stalker shot.

Your interpretation of B can be further dis-proven by what it does to C(in case the basic laws of the English language were not enough): If B were to simply mean "any hits at all" you run into the following situation: Triarch fires the particle shredder at unit 1, the blast marker scatters completely off of unit 1, but some models in unit 2(and unit 2 in this case can be friendly or enemy) are under the marker. Unit 1 now receives the counter.

See how messed up that is? A target is a very specific and defined thing; especially when talking about shooting. you have shot at a unit, you have targeted that unit; if you scatter off of that unit and hit another unit the second unit is never a target, only the first unit was the target.

Yeah in the initial post i asked about flamers/blasts

in subsequent posts I only referenced blasts which was the posts you were replying to, yet for some reason still focused on flamers.

How is point B wrong lol it says you need to manage one hit it doesnt specify on who, and thats the point i was making there. By literal definition it can scatter hit something else and still count, if you take it word for word.

So since we are debating english here is a cheap but similar example for ya. "Shoot at a band of criminals and kill a person, arrest said criminals".

Condition A : You are shooting
Condition B: Kill a Person
Result: Make an arrest

The person could be one of the criminals or an innocent bystander, regardless of which the result would apply as the condition has been fulfilled.

I do agree with you that a target is quite specific. The point being part B of the sentence is not. You are making the connection yourself, but sentences work like an math equation in logic. The two conditions do NOT have to be related to produce a result just like adding 1 + 3 to = 4.

The word "and" is as good as a plus sign in stating that both conditions must be met.

Anyway as I already stated I will play it on the safe side but i just don't agree that this is what was intended makes the particle shredder even crappier and takes the fun out of being able to land hits on multiple squads which seems to currently be popular in all new codexes just like in JoTWW and other abilities that score hits on multiple targets.

C is place a token on the target. Your target, whether you fire a blast or a template, is always singular.

Context specifies who must be hit for Point B.

The Stalker is shooting at an enemy unit that he must score at least one hit against.

The enemy unit is the subject of the action(triach stalker shooting). Scoring at least 1 hit is the desired result of the action. So the desired result is going to be against the subject of the action.

your counter example is punctuated incorrectly and has a secondary subject built into the desired result: "a person".

Proper punctuation for your sentence would be: "Shoot at a band of criminals, and kill a person; arrest said criminals".

Now you are shooting at a band of criminals, and you are killing 1 person(affiliation irrelevant). You are then arresting the criminals.

This is actually 3 separate sentences, combined.

If you were to word your sentence in the same manner as targeting relay you would have either:
"Shoot at a band of criminals and kill at least one, arrest said criminals".
-or-
"Shoot at a band of criminals and score at least one kill, arrest said criminals".

For both of these the band of criminals is still the subject of the killing.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Context specifies who must be hit for Point B.

The Stalker is shooting at an enemy unit that he must score at least one hit against.

The enemy unit is the subject of the action(triach stalker shooting). Scoring at least 1 hit is the desired result of the action. So the desired result is going to be against the subject of the action.

your counter example is punctuated incorrectly and has a secondary subject built into the desired result: "a person".

Proper punctuation for your sentence would be: "Shoot at a band of criminals, and kill a person; arrest said criminals".

Now you are shooting at a band of criminals, and you are killing 1 person(affiliation irrelevant). You are then arresting the criminals.

This is actually 3 separate sentences, combined.

If you were to word your sentence in the same manner as targeting relay you would have either:
"Shoot at a band of criminals and kill at least one, arrest said criminals".
-or-
"Shoot at a band of criminals and score at least one kill, arrest said criminals".

For both of these the band of criminals is still the subject of the killing.

Grammar, not just for Nazis.