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Hey Dakka! So I came across this while going against my friends Mech IG list. I used Anrykrh the Traveler to take command of an enemy Leman Russ in squadron of 3. Now in the FAQ for this, it states that the vehicle affected may not fire at itself. But being in a squadron, would I be able to fire the Leman Russ at the other members of the squadron, thus potentially hurting the one I took control of?

Food for thought!

It's not allowed to fire at itself in the same way a blast weapon cannot fire at - ie target - units locked in close combat. However, scatter may move the round into said close combat, and damage is applied as normal.

In other words; yes, it can. Remember that normally a Leman Russ (or any unit) can't fire at itself, anyway, but can still hurt itself through scatter.

EDIT: I assume you mean;

"Q: Can an enemy vehicle affected by the Mind in the
Machine ability fire at itself? (p62)
A: No."

In which case, yeah, it's pretty clear. It can't fire at itself - this says nothing about the tank right next to it. It just means it can't directly target itself. I suppose you could target the ground and hope it scatters, but... free Leman Russ shot. Use it wisely.

Frozen Ocean wrote:I suppose you could target the ground and hope it scatters,

You must place the blast marker over the base of a model or hull of a vehicle. You can not place it over nothing.

Yes I know. But if there are 3 leman russ's in 1 squadron, and I take control of one of the tanks, could i fire at the other 2 in the squad?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me try to illustrate this:

A C Anrykrh
B

With the given situation, let's say I successfully take control of tank C. Assuming it is facing the other 2, would I be able to put a blast template or just simply shoot at either A or B?

Then, if that is true, through allocation by the opponent, wouldn't he be able to choose to put a damage result on the vehicle that fired, since it's in a squadron with the other 2?

I do not see any reason why you could not target a vehicle in the same squadron. If the owning player allocates glancing/penetrating hits to the firing vehicle, that's his choice. In fact, if you are allowed to fire more then one weapon (I'm not really sure as I do not have the Necron Codex in front of me) he may be required to allocate hits to the firing vehicle depending on how many vehicles are in the squadron and how many hits you cause.

ToBeWilly wrote:
You must place the blast marker over the base of a model or hull of a vehicle. You can not place it over nothing.

I know, but such rules are often disregarded by myself and those with whom I play! (As is the inability to shoot at your own units - outside of CC, of course - if you so choose, not that we ever do)

Meanwhile; I understood what you meant about the squadron. However, it is still a single model firing; Kharn the Betrayer, for example, is fully capable of attacking those in his squad when he goes berserk. I... never thought about allocating wounds on to him, though. lmao

What do you mean, 'put a blast template or just simply shoot at either A or B"? Of course you put a blast template; the weapon is a blast weapon. It's not like the Lychguard (or Triarch Praetorian, whichever has a shield)'s shield, the spirit of which seems to imply that the blast is merely focused and redirected. In this case, it's exactly the same as the Leman Russ firing at anything else.

it woudl be cool if you did this and managed to immobilise a whoel squadron with his power (seeing as how, if he's in a barge he can in theory kill 3 tanks in one turn)...


I think...




Move - sweep kill Tank A
Use MiTM to shoot tank C with Tank B
charge and kill Tank B

Even better. Destroy Tank A with Tank C, Tank A explodes and damages the other two, and everyone rolls ones.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Even better. Destroy Tank A with Tank C, Tank A explodes and damages the other two, and everyone rolls ones.

Erm.... How could a strength 3 explosion hurt an armour 10, or more.

Scarabs

Actually entropic strike anywhere. Not neccessarily scarabs.

With that said I don't see how you can fire at the same squadron. They are a single unit and you are simply allowed to fire one of the vehicles...yadda yadda. You can't target the same unit that you exist in. Now could you fire at another nearby unit and hope for a friendly scatter? Sure.

I'm pretty sure you can't either, although it sounds cool. As it seems, by reading, the tank is still part of that unit even though you have control over it, and you can't target 'your own unit' when choosing to fire at something, which for that tanks shot the other tanks would still count as its unit.

Would be pretty awesome otherwise. But unless by taking control of it you seperate it from the unit, I'm gonna say rules as is go against the possibility.

I'm still going to have to say, I believe you can. Here's why: Mind in the Machine states, "...you can immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit." and, "Once these shooting attacks have been resolved, the vehicle returns to your opponent's control."

If it is your unit for the duration of the shooting attack it is no longer, at this moment, part of the squadron. Hence, it can target members of that squadron. And, since it doesn't return to the squadron until after the shooting attack has been resolved, it can't be allocated hits. Contrary to what I previously thought.

ToBeWilly wrote:I'm still going to have to say, I believe you can. Here's why: Mind in the Machine states, "...you can immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit." and, "Once these shooting attacks have been resolved, the vehicle returns to your opponent's control."

If it is your unit for the duration of the shooting attack it is no longer, at this moment, part of the squadron. Hence, it can target members of that squadron. And, since it doesn't return to the squadron until after the shooting attack has been resolved, it can't be allocated hits. Contrary to what I previously thought.

I agree with your final conclusion based of the wording of "Mind in the Machine".
I was not privy to that information myself prior to my last post, after reading it, I concur with your assessment.

ToBeWilly wrote:
I'm still going to have to say, I believe you can. Here's why: Mind in the Machine states, "...you can immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit." and, "Once these shooting attacks have been resolved, the vehicle returns to your opponent's control."

If it is your unit for the duration of the shooting attack it is no longer, at this moment, part of the squadron. Hence, it can target members of that squadron.

It never says anywhere that it ceases to be a part of the squadron. Show me where it says that and then yes I will agree with you.
It simply that you may shoot with that vehicle as if it were under your control ignoring stuns and shakes. Since nothing says that it isn't a seperate unit then you still cannot shoot at it.

ToBeWilly wrote:
And, since it doesn't return to the squadron until after the shooting attack has been resolved, it can't be allocated hits. Contrary to what I previously thought.

Again nowhere does it say that it ceases to be apart of the squadron.

This is a question that cannot be answered by the rules as written so there is little point debating it on that level.

It all comes down to the issue of:

• Yes, the firing vehicle is under the control of the Necron player but is it still part of the same Squadron? (Don't see why not)
• However, is the squadron still an enemy unit? (seems that way)

Therefore it makes sense that the vehicle can fire at its own unit, even placing the blast over itself perhaps?

Again, its all just speculation on how best you think to play it because the rules are not of any help really.


For the INAT, after a long argument we finally settled on counting the firing vehicle as temporarily separate from his squadron-mates. So he could fire at them, but could not hurt himself (not counting scattering blasts, naturally).