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If an Archon and his unit with 1 Pain Token charge an enemy then then proceeds to kill an enemy Independant Character, thus gaining a Pain Token and Furious Charge immediately, does the rest of his unit benifit from Furious Charge when it's thier turn to strike, despite not having the rule when they were charging?

Yes, as they have the ability and launched an assault that turn.

I'd disagree. They didn't have the ability when they launched the assault. If they could lose a pain token, and you lose one, would they lose furious charge?

Based on a ruling from the BA FAQ I would have to say yes, you get furious charge for the secondary models, but cannot retroactively gain it for the archon.

Here's the relevant question:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model makes its close combat attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When the model would put the bonus into effect is right before it strikes, so if the archon kills something and adds a PfP token, the rest of the unit now has the ability before they would strike, hence they would get it.

rigeld2 wrote:I'd disagree. They didn't have the ability when they launched the assault. If they could lose a pain token, and you lose one, would they lose furious charge?

Yes, read the rules for Furious Charge.

I agree, pain tokens are gained immediately after a non-vehicle unit is destroyed. But, Sharing the Pain states that any pain tokens that belong to the unit and the character are pooled while they are joined, during combat, IC are considered separate units. Does this mean the IC can't share the pain until they are considered one unit again? It could, or I can see someone arguing that. I think that would bring up other problems as well, so I'm inclined to think no, but ...

No ICs are still part of the unit in CC, but for the purpose of allocating attacks they are considered separate. So the premise of that argument is erroneous.

I'd say no, but reading the above makes me unsure.
To me, I'd say Furious Charge activates when the charge move is made, therefore at that time, they did not have the rule.
However if above is indeed a quote from the FAQ, it says it is decided based on whether they have it at the time of making the attacks.
Interesting...

So potentially the unit could gain FC and find that their Initiative step has already been finished? Say, Archon + Wyches.

The Furious Charge rules just say "on a turn in which they assaulted into combat they add..."

after the pain token is gained, they are both a model with Furious Charge, and a model which assaulted into combat that turn, thus they satisfy the requirements.

I don't think you could have the problem with their initiative step being over since the rules tell you "work your way through the initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest" you are specifically going through the models initiative values, not just going through each initiative "step" once, If the Wyches gain Initiative to go up to an Initiative value that has already been done it shouldn't matter, they are still the models in the combat with the highest initiative that haven't attacked yet, and thus, would go next, admittedly it is a bit of a grey area the rules don't adequately account for though.

I want to say yes, but it is a mess of confusion with the chance to skip people at certain initiative steps (especially in multi charge situations with stagger initiative values).

The support I can offer for no is that the rule mentions combat resolution and units being destroyed (you have to randomize the token), and that in assault the only time it mentions the unit being destroyed is during combat resolution. This leads me to think that even though there are initiative steps things don't change once the combat begins.
Another argument could be that the IC in the other squad is part of the same unit, so only 1 pain token would be given (but this sounds wrong from the start).

It keeps it the simplest, but I feel compelled to side the other way that the unit the character is attached to gets the token, if the result skips someone in the initiative step, they still get to make their attacks at +1str at their old initiative.

why are a couple of people talking about Initiative steps like this? we're not using a computer program that has to process these things and end up glitching if things don't pan out. if we were using a computer then Blood Angles might get to attack twice if thier Blood Chalice bearer gets killed and their initiative drops.

That's true. It does kind've work that way though, it's just that if you've already went you don't get to go again. While the rules don't state this, it's rather obvious.