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Because school has ended for me and summer has begun, I got to bring out my tyranid army. I played a 1.5k game.
At my local games workshop, we get a lot of spectators at the store and during my game a good bunch of them were claiming that the "Tyranids HQs are the worst in 40k and the Hive tyrant is even worst HQ." (quoted for a spectator.)
I have great success with my the Hive Tyrant, about half of the time he makes his points back.
So I guess the question to you Dakka is, What are your experiences with Tyranid HQs, and why do you believe they are the worst out there.

They die really easily to Missile launchers.

That is why many people consider them bad.

Especially the Hive Tyrant, even if he has guards and even if you give him a 2+ armor save, people will generally kill him with Lascannons/Plasma before he gets across the table.

DeathReaper wrote:They die really easily to Missile launchers.

That is why many people consider them bad.

Especially the Hive Tyrant, even if he has guards and even if you give him a 2+ armor save, people will generally kill him with Lascannons/Plasma before he gets across the table.

That is why there are units to draw the heavy weapons fire, like trygon or trevigon, blob geanstealers or a big group or toxic sac hormogaunts.

If you can't get your Tyranid HQ's into combat because of ranged weapons, either you don't have enough terrain on the table, or you're not bothering to use it. Even though Hive Tyrants are big, it's not hard at all to hide them or get them cover saves (especially if they have Tyrant Guard) on their way to much a unit.

Their only drawback is the inability to get an invulnerable save, something that's not that big of a deal in an edition where 4+ cover saves are handed out like candy.

In my experience, Flyrants are cool (monstrous creatures jumping around are nasty, just ask Teleporter Dreadknight). The Swarmlord, properly escorted by Tyrant Guard, is a beast. He will annihilate just about anything in CC. Tervigons are phenomenal for pooping out dozens of scoring figures. I don't really know about any other HQs besides those three, but I have to account for all of them in my battle plans or they can turn the tide on me very easily.

I'm at the point where I never play without the Parasite, he's game shiftingly fantastic in a Gargoyle bunker.

DeathReaper wrote:They die really easily to Missile launchers.

That is why many people consider them bad.

Especially the Hive Tyrant, even if he has guards and even if you give him a 2+ armor save, people will generally kill him with Lascannons/Plasma before he gets across the table.

And while he is getting shot up, your other units are NOT. So what if he doesn't kill anything, as long has he is DISTRACTING the fire onto himself, the other units are becoming unscathed the. Use this TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.

Squash wrote:I'm at the point where I never play without the Parasite, he's game shiftingly fantastic in a Gargoyle bunker.

Can also put him with bonesword shrikes for a melee squad that can take on a boyz swarm for some awesome results. Rippers. Rippers everywhere.

I regularly field the Swarmlord, which is mostly relevant for the lack of 2+ saves in this regard, and have never had issue with its being shot too fast.

Which is not to say it does not happen, but the amount of fire it takes to drop Swarmlord + 2 TG in cover is rather silly and I appreciate that it is not being used on other parts of my list.

Yes, Hive Tyrants die to massed anti-tank fire that everyone has and will use on MCs that do not get the transport-wrappers everyone else can take, but that simply means you need to view your other units (even the main attraction like the Swarmlord) as wrappers, on occasion.

If your single MC dies, it is because you have a single MC. Target saturation is important to Tyranids more than many simply because there WILL be a MC that is a better target than the gribblies for the anti-tank weapons your opponent WILL have.

Lack of vehicles is more of a problem than not having transports for units that should be able to utilize them; the fact that vehicles are a universal (other than Tyranids) threat, as well as a universal (other than Tyranids) defense causes more issue. Spods can fake a transport (sans IC, because its Nids) but never the offense or defense that makes said transport valuable in the game itself - they are simply DS buffs that are KP penalties.

It's really worth saying, there are many Tyranid units that fill the role traditional HQs fill. Tervigons are usually taken as Troops and fulfill psychic support. Zoanthropes are psychic shooting and venomthropes are terrific area support. You've also got lictors/deathleaper for battlefield utility, and generally messing up the enemy's strategy.

Warriors/Shrikes also operate very similarly to command squads, being extremely modular, excellent at whatever task you put them to, but fragile for the points.

Tyranid HQs seem like niche units that aren't at all generalists like most army... Generals. For instance, a Hive Tyrant with wings and two pairs of scything talons is an incredible tank hunter. Old Enemy is an amazing area buff. Tyrant Guard with a 2+ save Tyrant can be a line-breaking deathstar. The only option that Hive Tyrants can't pursue is to be a jack of all trades.

Just to support my claim, consider the Tyranid Prime, who most people would think is the most general. The truth is you'll only get your points back if you use him in one (maybe two) of four ways;

1) A buff for a large group of Tyranid Warriors
2) A way to play wound allocation games
3) A way to give Carnifexes cover
4) A synapse delivery mechanism

which tyranid hq is the one that gains wounds with everything it kills? that guy is cheesy you should use him.

That's the Doom of Malantai, and it's an Elites choice, not an HQ.

Davor wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They die really easily to Missile launchers.

That is why many people consider them bad.

Especially the Hive Tyrant, even if he has guards and even if you give him a 2+ armor save, people will generally kill him with Lascannons/Plasma before he gets across the table.

And while he is getting shot up, your other units are NOT. So what if he doesn't kill anything, as long has he is DISTRACTING the fire onto himself, the other units are becoming unscathed the. Use this TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.

Only problem with that hypothesis is that he is slow if he has guard.

And there is a lot of other shooting to go around.

The only way I've found to keep my Tyrant alive is with wings, and hiding him in combat.

Arson Fire wrote:That's the Doom of Malantai, and it's an Elites choice, not an HQ.

What's a good way to counter that guy? He was really obnoxious when I played him as tau, and he ended the game with 7 wounds...

He's toughness 4 and not eternal warrior, that's pretty easy to deal with, even with a 3+ invulnerable save.

Also, his ability is a psychic power, lots you can do to stop that.

Not with Tau, on the psychic blocking..

Shoot him. Shoot him lots.

Blocking his psychic powers is a marine and Eldar thing. Tau can do jack about it.

Also, his spirit slurpie can't reach inside a vehicle. Withoutn the spirit slurpie his psychic pyrotechnics aren't that impressive. You should be able to stay out of his reach and pummel him with railguns/other good S 8 + guns IIRC.

Yeah, just hit it with lots of S8 or higher weapons. It only has to fail one save.

It's 24" range large blast attack is a psychic power, but the 6" life sucking aura ability it has is not. There isn't much you can do about that ability, except move away so it can only hit you on the dooms turn.

phoenixrisin wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:That's the Doom of Malantai, and it's an Elites choice, not an HQ.

What's a good way to counter that guy? He was really obnoxious when I played him as tau, and he ended the game with 7 wounds...

For Tau?

Lots of Fire warrior shots.

2 units of fire warriors shooting all of their guns should kill him before he even gets to do anything.

Local GW tables are hardly blessed with decent terrain from the stores I've seen over the years. Only lower terrain tables Nids will generally suffer.

On HQs, tyrant/swarmlord are maybe a bit too expensive but still pretty effective units. You need to build the list around them if you're paying that amount of points for them. Flyrant, dakka tyrant are both good builds and hive commander, Old Adversary are really worth the points in the right list.

PoM is okay, but with stats not much different to a Necron Wraith the points cost is painful.

Tyranid Prime is great for 100 pts. T5, bonesword, regen. Sorted.

Tervigons are good too if you don't have troop slots for him. Obviously better as a troop but for a 200 pt HQ there's a lot of good there.

So, a pretty competitive slot in the codex. Probably equal to troops, just behind elites, but a lot stronger than both FA and HS which do have limited choices.

i didn't know anything about him and i just read the tyranid codex ten mins ago and the guy was cheating because he wasn't taking his D3 wounds after the cataclysm power, so he was just stacking up wounds and now i'm kind of angry about it. he took tons of wounds too from my kroot. to this day i don't understand people that cheat to win in games like this or video games. yeah, you won, but you have to live with being a piece of crap.

DeathReaper wrote:2 units of fire warriors shooting all of their guns should kill him before he even gets to do anything.

Unless he pods between them, reduces them to 50% from his soul leech, and drops an S10 ordnance nuke on one of the squads (or something else juicy nearby like some broadsides) before he even gets shot.

If you're walking the Doom into battle, you're very, very seriously doing it wrong. He's a biological nuke. If he lives past the turn he drops, it's awesome, but if he doesn't, it's not hard making more than his points back the turn he pods in.

Regarding Tyranid HQ's not surviving... how? I get that every enemy you fight has 3 squads of missile long fangs, 4 rune preists with JotWW and 5 psyflemen dreads, but guys, terrain. Use more than aegis defense barricades, you might notice some things surviving the alhpa strike.

phoenixrisin wrote:i didn't know anything about him and i just read the tyranid codex ten mins ago and the guy was cheating because he wasn't taking his D3 wounds after the cataclysm power, so he was just stacking up wounds and now i'm kind of angry about it. he took tons of wounds too from my kroot. to this day i don't understand people that cheat to win in games like this or video games. yeah, you won, but you have to live with being a piece of crap.

May not have been cheating. I forget that quite often (but usually remember before my shooting phase is over) - but remember that if he caused wounds with the blast he gains those wounds... so -d3, but +whatever wounds

He just has to take the -d3 before he gains his wounds.

On the subject of which HQ, it really depends on the rest of your list. Don't take a tyrant or swarmlord hq unless you have a bunch of other MCs on the table as threats. I love winged tyrants and the swarmlord, but I won't take either in my standard 2k lists unless I'm running my usual 2x tervigon and 2x trygons. If I field a winged tyrant, I usually do so in pairs. The warrior prime is never a bad choice if applied properly as he isn't the enormus threat that a tyrant is, so he is not going to draw the kind of fire a tyrant will. The PoM is okay, but can be self defeating in KP games (hint, leave the ripper swarms at home. He can't spawn them if you don't have the models). Tervigons are always nice, but they too need some other MCs to draw some fire, but they aren't nearly as big of a threat as the tyrants.

rigeld2 wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:i didn't know anything about him and i just read the tyranid codex ten mins ago and the guy was cheating because he wasn't taking his D3 wounds after the cataclysm power, so he was just stacking up wounds and now i'm kind of angry about it. he took tons of wounds too from my kroot. to this day i don't understand people that cheat to win in games like this or video games. yeah, you won, but you have to live with being a piece of crap.

May not have been cheating. I forget that quite often (but usually remember before my shooting phase is over) - but remember that if he caused wounds with the blast he gains those wounds... so -d3, but +whatever wounds

oh i know, he sure didn't forget to add the wounds. he just forgot to subtract the ones from the D3.

-Loki- wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:2 units of fire warriors shooting all of their guns should kill him before he even gets to do anything.

Unless he pods between them, reduces them to 50% from his soul leech, and drops an S10 ordnance nuke on one of the squads (or something else juicy nearby like some broadsides) before he even gets shot.

Hard to pod down and be that close to both units...

one unit sure, but it will be in cover, so you may do a few wounds.

The Doom is as easy as Zoans to initially take down, if he grows to many wounds fire Str 8+ at him till he fails one save, and he dies.

T4 3++ is really not that tough to deal with for any army.

DeathReaper wrote:Hard to pod down and be that close to both units...

It's actually not. Since it has the same guidance rules as a ropd pod, it's not hard to position it between two units and a bit of terrain so it'll not likely scatter very far. Podding it between two units is usually the easy part.

DeathReaper wrote:one unit sure, but it will be in cover, so you may do a few wounds.

Just like every transport has a Librarian in it even if it's not a Space Marine army, every army has triple Long Fangs even though it isn't a Space Wolf army, etc.

Cover is common, but not omnipresent, even in 5th.

DeathReaper wrote:T4 3++ is really not that tough to deal with for any army.

Sure, it's not hard to deal with. It doesn't have to be. When it lands, drains two squads to half and drops an S10 ordnance on a Land Raider or something to that effect, it's paid for itself twice over. Then comes the glee of watching half the army turn backwards to kill this thing in their backline that can nuke a squad or tank its next turn if they don't deal with it.

When I played nids, one of three things would usually happen, I would: Get my HQ's into CC, and pwn, or, I would never even make it there(see long fang spam), or I would make it there, but I was so messed up from shooting, I couldn't really justify the points I had ended up spending on the Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord/3 hiveguard. I tried one game,(with some sucess) Deep Striking in two winged hive Tyrants, and 3 harpies, and 3 fexes. I also Deep struck in the new devourerer-Gaunts. 60 S4 shots is pretty nasty from one squad, but still overpriced. The point is, Robin Cruddace didn't do the Nids any favors, they are overpriced in a lot of areas. Nidzilla isn't as viable anymore, 160pts for a fex? come on, that's almost DOUBLE the original cost, granted, they are improved, it's still just not worth it. And in theory should be taking some heat off of your MC HQ's, but it hurts just as bad when they die. Same goes for the Hive tyrant, 170pts base?!??! Again, almost double the points, for a big WS buff, and other minor changes. Bottom line: I would have had WAY more success, if the points hadn't been so inflated for what I was getting, i'm not saying Hive Tyrant's are bad, but, most other mc's are way less pts, and do way more, I almost feel like 3 canoptek spiders could beat a hive tyrant in CC, and they are 30pts cheaper overall for the squad. Case closed.

I have seen the DoM killed by removing its wounds one at a time exactly once, and I tend to field it rather often.

ID is the way to kill it.