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Pretty confused about flyers in 8th ed fullstop, but this one I could do with some clarification on

Yes. HOwever, you must still follow all the other rules. Moast notably that the base needs to fitt, and if you charge in front you need to fitt in the front etc.

So what if there is one inch between the two units and you are charging over the one in front? Your models could fit between both units to charge the one behind. You would then however be in contact with both units though. Have you then effectively charged the front unit in the rear 'accidentally?'

you must maintain 1 inch from units you are not charging iirc

Flying models treat other units as open terrain if they don't charge them. They simply aren't there. The only rule is they can't land on them. There are some models who even take advantage of flying over other models to attack them, Lizardmen Terradons and Daemon wingy-manta-things (forget their names cuz no one ever uses them).

DukeRustfield wrote:Daemon wingy-manta-things (forget their names cuz no one ever uses them).

Screamers. Yeah, they are terrible.

tgf wrote:you must maintain 1 inch from units you are not charging iirc

Right, so if they are exactly 1 inch apart, and you fly in with a 1 inch base size in that gap, thus contacting both units, did you effectively charge both?

One of the two units(likely the one being charged) would need to be moved the minimum distance to maintain 1" from any other unit, in this case moving so that the charging flyer is at least 1" away.

You can fly over anything. 1" doesn't come into play flying over. You're not rolling for movement, you know you will go 10", you know you will land or not land on something (and you can't land on enemies).

You can fly directly over an enemy unit and charge a different enemy unit behind it, if you can reach it.

You can fly over impassible terrain, friendly units, enemy units.

This is all in the flying section of the BRB.

The question he's making is this:

AAAAAA
<1">
BBBBBB


X

X is the flyer, charging unit A which is 1" behind unit B. By charging unit A, X flies over B and hits the front, however X is on a 25mm base and as such the rear of X comes into contact with the rear of B.

In this case, I would say that A has to move back 1"(if possible) to maintain the 1" between X and B once the move is resolved.

No one is arguing that the charge isn't valid, as we've covered that it is.

Aerethan wrote:The question he's making is this:

AAAAAA
<1">
BBBBBB


X

X is the flyer, charging unit A which is 1" behind unit B. By charging unit A, X flies over B and hits the front, however X is on a 25mm base and as such the rear of X comes into contact with the rear of B.

In this case, I would say that A has to move back 1"(if possible) to maintain the 1" between X and B once the move is resolved.

No one is arguing that the charge isn't valid, as we've covered that it is.

Yes. Sounds good to me.

I've never heard of a charge-ee having to move after being charged--except for closing the door. The charging unit is the one who has to make allowances. The enemy isn't going to skirt out of the way to make an impossible charge possible.

The base of the flier is still a valid base size. You cannot end within 1" of an enemy unit and you cannot rear-charge an enemy (esp your rear!), as it would not be within the front arc anymore. And you cannot land on an enemy.

You could declare this charge, in hopes that the front unit, BBB, would move away sufficiently, but no matter the base size of X, 1" is too small for any unit to fit in there even if they could teleport. Because you would be within 1" of another unit you didn't declare a charge on.

You could come from the flank, you could go around B, you could hit both B and A from the flank. But there's no way you can be in a 1" gap. That's an impossible charge.

Likewise the base size of whatever is flying is the actual base size of the unit. If a Daemon Prince is flapping around, he's got that 50mm base and has to find room that can accomodate him. Enemies don't have to move politely.

Actually the charge fails, that's how dwarves keep warmachines safe from fliers (from certain angles anyway), there is just no legal way to finish the charge as you can't charge the rear of a unit you where facing to the front, and certainly can't only charge the other unit as that would contact the 1st.

Aaaaactually, update on this. 25mm is less than an inch. So technically they don't come in contact with the unit in front, or "Unit B".

So no problem.

But they still are within 1" of an enemy and they can't do that. Flying doesn't take away that requirement.

That is a way you can shield your troops from charges. Having a 1" buffer between A and B means no one, not even goblins or skinks can squeeze in there. They have to come from the flank or rear.

Which is perfectly legal.

pg 13 under 1" apart:

"Occasionally, a unit will have approached to within 1" of a unit it did not charge as the result of moving into contact with a unit it did charge. This is perfectly acceptable, although players may wish to nudge the units further apart to maintain a suitable degree of clarity."

You still need to be able to physically fit, but as long as you can, the 1" rule doesn't stop you from that kind of charge.

Hooray for page 13! =)

1 inch = 25.4mm so it is perfectly legal to do that charge with a 25mm base flyer. But I would say that it is a little bit of lawyering and next time I play again anyone doing that I would require him to measure all his charge distance, movement correct to .1 of a mm

I'm just saying it fits, and that as long as my opponents remember to place their models an inch apart as per the rules, no measuring would be necessary.

Yeah- this rule, combined with war machines not having a base or facing, it becomes exceptionally hard to protect them from small flyers- and even 40mm bases.

Davall wrote:Which is perfectly legal.

pg 13 under 1" apart:

"Occasionally, a unit will have approached to within 1" of a unit it did not charge as the result of moving into contact with a unit it did charge. This is perfectly acceptable, although players may wish to nudge the units further apart to maintain a suitable degree of clarity."

You still need to be able to physically fit, but as long as you can, the 1" rule doesn't stop you from that kind of charge.

It's page 20 that states they can end there. I thought they could only maneuver within 1" but it seems they can end up within 1" if it's a charge.

It is a bit of a rules lawyering but I'm not sure, now I've read more of it, that the 1" was ever designed to protect anything. It is for clarity, per page 13. It was simply adopted by players as a rules lawyering way to stop charges. But that's what happens when you mix metric and English standard measurements.

Between pg 13 and 20, it seems pretty clear they never intended the 1" rule to stop charges, as they mention it is "perfectly acceptable" to end up within 1" as a result of a charge.

And Red_Zeke is right; trying to protect warmachines is a lot tougher than most think because of the Raiding Party and lack of facing. I can't currently think of another situation where the old "tactical wheel" from 7th is still in the game.