Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As a long time chaos player i feel that the book was robbed of the great possibilites and fluff that it used to have in the older editions. Dont they play a big role in the 40k universe? Because this codex makes it feel like they dont really matter anymore. Its hard to explain in such a short post (im posting on my iphone) but i made a full post here:

http://theunholyharbinger.blogspot.com/2012/06/chaos-space-marines-4th-5th-and-beyond.html

Does anyone else feel the same way as i do? Any chaos players still out there?

Shouldn't this be in 40k Discussion?

I think, what they're missing is:

1) Integrated non-generic Daemons, whether it's by allowing allies with the Daemon codex, or some in-book Lesser and Greater Daemons, either way would work for me.

2) Bring back Cult lists! The lists that used to be in the back of 3rd Ed Codex:CSM added so much character, like, Iron Warriors being able to use Basilisks and the Warsmith, or Alpha Legion having access to Cultists, or Word Bearers to more Daemons.

3) More customisable Daemon Princes, similar to the Daemon book. They're all a bit vanilla aren't they. Similarly, allow the Tzeentch Daemon weapon to be used by a Sorceror, it just doesn't make much sense on a Lord does it?

ah yes, how do i move it to the 40k discussion?

I agree on all counts, WaaghLord. They don't need to be dramatically more powerful, just have more interesting options.

Loyalists have:
1 main book
5 variants (SW, BA, GK, BT, DA)
a bunch of special characters for other variants

chaos have:
1 main book
some ancient special characters, that don't do much regarding army composition and don't represent all the major (or even popular) factions

they're missing their 9 variant chapters, Lost and the Damned, and real daemons

i never understood how they all have separate codexes, but none of the legions do

A good Codex would be the proper answer I do believe.

Add flavor to units.

Make it possible to take say shooty Raptors, or LC/rip-the-feth-out-of-you-in-CC Raptors (Night Lords). Not just Regular CSM minus bolters, plus Jump Packs.

Allow Chosen to take Termi Armor

I don't know, but I'd imagine that the Dark Mechanicus would be okay with completely changing up the vehicles. I'd like to see a crazy amount of vehicle options to represent this (Ex. Land Raider decked out with Plasma guns/cannons ). Or hell, that Obliterator Land Raider that someone developed in the Proposed Rules (Of course, Iron Warriors only or something like that).

Cult Terminators

Traitor Legion traits would be pretty nice

And frankly, I'd like to see either a drop in points for Noise Marines or that they come standard with Sonic Blasters

Oh, how could I forget... FIX CHAOS SPAWN

There need to be marks and Cult versions of stuff.

MoN terminators get +1T, Plague Terminators have special Nurgle weapons and abilities in addition to +1T.



So maybe as follows,


MoN: +1T(like Bikes)

Plague Terminators have natural T5, 5+ FnP(bonus if Typhus is around?), Scythes(3+ poison power weapon?), and the ability to purchase from the Nurgle armory for special/heavy weapons.

Nurgle weaponry: Maybe a flamer that forces T tests to suffer a wound at AP4 or just 2+ poison.


MoS: +1I

Emperor's Children Terminators have +1I and can take Sonic Blasters and Blast Masters.


MoT: 5+ invuln or +1 to existing invuln

Thousand Sons terminators: Slow and Purposeful, 4+ invuln, Power weapons that give +1Str. Led by Sorceror who can take a psychic test to make all their power weapons cause Instant Death(basically give them BoP) or cast the Bolt of Change. Maybe also a Psychic Hood?

MoK: +1A

World Eater Terminators: +1A, Rage, can have either 2 LCs or big Chain Axes(+2Str)

LoneLictor wrote:A good Codex would be the proper answer I do believe.

Took the words out of my keyboard.

Tbh, the current book is OK for a warband chaos army. But does favour certain builds.

I think that all they need to bring the legions back, is the customisability that was missing from the latest book. You don't need to say it's a legion, if the rules are available in the book to give it that slant. Say infiltrating Alpha Legion/Night Lords type build or heavy for Iron Warriors.

If they let us have enough customisation at the HQ and Elite levels then the rumoured allies and IC abilities would allow most of us to put together any specific legion as we want to play it. Word Bearers would have real Deamons.

However I'd love to see Drop Pods to bring back the Khorne chargeyess that my army used to have before the Skull God got nerfed. (Had to paint the standard CSMs Black Legion after that).

And as long as they remove bloomin Scout from the Possessed I'd be happy enough. (Even if they let us pick and pay for the ability. They're already pricey)

Also restricting the Crazed rule from the Dreds would make them useable again with ranged weaponry.

But maybe a legion specific IC with rules that give a flavour to your troops might be a good way of bringing legions back. (Rumoured Typhus allowing cultist Zombies with FnP)

Oh and plez, make Tzeench worth being the lord of psychics. Rather than being worse than a SW rune priest. I mean come on.... Lord of magic = crapper than some magic hating marine with a funcy pebble round his neck?

Excited to see what comes with the new codex though.

phempchildrenbob wrote: As a long time chaos player i feel that the book was robbed of the great possibilites and fluff that it used to have in the older editions. Dont they play a big role in the 40k universe? Because this codex makes it feel like they dont really matter anymore. Its hard to explain in such a short post (im posting on my iphone) but i made a full post here:

http://theunholyharbinger.blogspot.com/2012/06/chaos-space-marines-4th-5th-and-beyond.html

Does anyone else feel the same way as i do? Any chaos players still out there?

Don't think I didn't see what you did there
Ya shameless blog promotion!

I think that there should be more god specific upgrades and weapons, like the Bezerker Glaive and the Third Eye of Tzeentch. Chaos Marks should bestow more stuff on the users, so for example, the Mark of Slaanesh giving Acute Senses and Counter Attack, as well as +1 Initiative.

Chaos Spawn should be customizable. Why does the most versatile and tweakable model in the range have no options in game?

More Dreadnought stuff. Blastmasters on Dreadnoughts I say!

I think I second the good Codex comments.

Obviously more customisation is needed, but I don't feel this should be limited to god-flavoured lists only.

I do feel it really shouldn't go back to the 3.5 'dex however.

Cultists and other traitors play a big role in the universe. Chaos Marines just hang out in the background being dickbags, and occasionally come out to cause trouble.

However, in the game, they've been one of its core armies for two decades, and it is sad to think that the army has sorta been gutted and ignored.

What Chaos needs is a competitive list. Give them back the daemons. Lose the Obliterators and give them back functional and competitively priced termies and Heavy weapon squads. Give them an equivalent of ATSKNF to balance them out with the loyalists perhaps?

Oh, and cultists. Bring back cultists and traitor Guard because those armies are one of the universe's most common baddies and they have no GW rules at this point


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phempchildrenbob wrote:i never understood how they all have separate codexes, but none of the legions do

This is simple. Space Marines sell about a bajillion times more models than Chaos Marines do.

A good Codex.

1.Make the Icons do what the Marks used to do in 3.5.
2.Give me back my Daemonic Gifts upgrades for Lords and Princes.
3.IC's for the 9 legions that shift things around on the chart.
4.At least 1 LR variant, would prefer 2.
5.Drop pods that are legal in tournaments and not just in ones that say Forgeworld is ok.
6.Make Bikers better.
7.Make Raptors better.
8.Make Obliterators S and T 5 again.
9.Kharn and Typhus get Eternal Warrior. They have been fighting for over 10,000 years and a krak missile can instant kill them. Lucius gets similar ability to Lelith for DE where he gets bonus attacks based on difference in WS. Make him WS 7 to represent this.
10.Dreadnoughts can take their own version of Marks and get upgrades to represent this. Tzeentch gets a Psychic Power, Slaanesh gets Sonic Weapons, Khorne gets Fleet, Nurgle gets +1 to AV or Plague Weapons that are poisoned.

I think thats about it really.

Cultists would be nice, especially for Alpha warrior and Word Bearer armies.

would be very cool to have an infiltrated cultist squad be very close to an enemy unit, then all sacrifice themselves to summon a pack of Daemons.

Whenever someone complains about codex creep, just ask a CSM player if they think their current codex is stronger than their previous one. Once you get the ringing out of your ears, go talk to an eldar player...

There are a lot of whiny CSM players, especially olde-tymie ones. The only thing CSM needs is to have their codex refreshed to be more in line with the rules edition that they're playing in and the style of the game over all.

A nice, solid codex is all that's needed.

I would actually like to see a punishment/penalty for mixed lists, as well as a strong push toward core lists.

The notion of a bunch of nurgle warriors banding to follow a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince has always baffled me. Mainly though we need

A) More flavour, less generic bland vanilla

B) Stable dreadnoughts we can depend on. You can't convince me a blood angel death company dreadnought is more managable than an Iron Warrior one, and the vehicle is just too unreliable.

C) Possessed you can upgrade rather than randomly roll for.

D) Icon of Chaos goes back to Mark. No longer one dipstick holding a rod buffing the whole unit.

E) Competitive characters

One thing that I'd thought about for the Possessed would be having them start at a relatively low price per model, say 12 (maybe 15-16 if you leave S5 on rather than an upgrade), and then having the mutations cost extra.

Of course you'd have to make it mandatory to take at least one. Just price it at 4 points or so for the less useful and around 9 or 10 for the more useful ones. That way at most a USEFUL possessed would run 22 points or so.

The trick would be purchasing for the entire unit, or per model. Fleet or FNP on one model would be something of a waste, but sporadic power weapons or rending wouldn't be terrible.

=/ Add in some of the elements of Chaos we here about in the fluff, but rarely in game. Don't make it just codex Chaos, still have it marine centric, but include things like Dark Mechanicus creations (or themselves), cultist elements (though should traitor guard and these be kept to their own book as allies 0.o....would be a good book), mutant packs (as in human mutants, or animalistic ones-like the human face dog flesh things that Dan Abnett mentioned in Salvation's Reach), in fact more flesh creation related things would be fun (but again more cultist codex)(though that may be treading the realms of the Dark Eldar codex a little). Giving the marines more links to the loyalist astartes would be nice. I mean by this as in apparently as soon as you turn traitor you jettison all your thunderfire cannons, servitors, Whirlwinds, etc. Don't include these things (well maybe the servitors), but at least have reference to them or equivalent units. Hell if we're going back to 3rd edition style days allow them as limited allied units for renegade forces.

Treading the lines of daemons, alright I can't see marked daemons coming back, but that's fine whatever. Bring back Furies and add in more variants of daemons. What about the bigger ones, not the Greater Daemons, no the huge animal style types found in the fluff. Of course Chaos Spawn could be used to represent these, but in that case buff the damn things.

^^ A special rule for cultist units that would be neat is summoning circles or the like. Ie if a certain task is carried out for whichever thing is being summoned it gets a buff (ie if a Khornate unit were to be summoned, then say an independent character being killed in close combat would allow for this).

Bringing back mutations would be neat, though the loss of the wargear section would prevent this somewhat. In that case allowing for more variants of Lord or characters wouled be nice (ie possessed lords, ones on the cusp of daemonhood like in the previous edition). The crustacean encrusted terminator champion from the novel Blood Gorgons would be a neat thing to emulate.

Really it would seem as though a separate codex (codex:cultists or something) would be needed to catch the thing's I'd be looking for, but we can hope. Meh, Forgeworld made a traitor guard list, one that's more mutant/cult/dark mechanicus crazy stuff we only here about in the fluff centric really would be neat, but it would be nice to have some of it included in the next edition marine codex too. ^^

......

And edit. Bring back the bloody marks system. As in no more Slaanesh and Khorne units in the same force, bar possibly in apocalypse games. Such an annoying loss of fluffy rules, which personally I don't adhere to, but there's plenty of people who just take it as another excuse to power game. ¬¬