Quebec residents protest law 78 limiting protests

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Relapse**

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/13/12166345-maple-spring-protests-cuts-crackdown-on-student-rallies-roil-quebec?lite

All this and a 75 percent hike in tuition, too. It also appears that the Quebec government is looking at the privatization of health care.

**Experiment 626**

Relapse wrote:http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/13/12166345-maple-spring-protests-cuts-crackdown-on-student-rallies-roil-quebec?lite

All this and a 75 percent hike in tuition, too. It also appears that the Quebec government is looking at the privatization of health care.

And even with the tuition hike, Quebec will still have by far the lowest tuition fees in the entire country. And how does Quebec currently maintain their stupidly low tuition costs? By having the rest of the country pay it for them because they're deemed a 'have not' province.

(being a 'have-not' province means that they recieve monetary support from every province/territory running a profit)

And the postesters aren't even mostly the students anymore, but big unions, enviromental nut-jobs who think every buisness is evil, anti-capitalists and other far-leftwing selfrightous morons who'd try and turn our country into the next Greece.

**dæl**

"Maple Spring" LOL. Everything is a spring these days, we just had the "Bradford Spring" after voting in an idiot in Bradford.

I don't agree with tuition fees at all, I think education should be free, as society as a whole reaps the benefits of having a well educated populous, and universities should not be run as a business. But if you are to have fees they must be a flat rate everywhere, otherwise it's simply unfair for one area to subsidise another.

**Experiment 626**

dæl wrote:"Maple Spring" LOL. Everything is a spring these days, we just had the "Bradford Spring" after voting in an idiot in Bradford.

I don't agree with tuition fees at all, I think education should be free, as society as a whole reaps the benefits of having a well educated populous, and universities should not be run as a business. But if you are to have fees they must be a flat rate everywhere, otherwise it's simply unfair for one area to subsidise another.

No government right now can afford to give older citizens 'free' post-secondary education. The students are simply being a bunch of petulent, over-entitled d-bags right now.

Granted I don't agree with the Quebec government's new law to try and quash the daily protests which is costing the city of Montreal millions in lost revenues... They already had the nessessary laws on the books to put an end to the protests, they simply have to apply them!

**Relapse**

I mentioned the part about the Quebec government looking at privatizing medicine to a Newfie bud of mine and he's all for it.
It sent him off telling me about women getting a year's maternity leave at half salary if they want it. He then told me of how.
his fatther can't get treatment for his back and shoulder because he's too old for funding that kind of operation.
He thentopped it off by talking about his brother who has to pay more than half his yearly earnings in taxes to pay for all the government programs.
I don't know if he's isolated in his views, but he has an extremely strong opinin.

**dæl**

Experiment 626 wrote:
dæl wrote:"Maple Spring" LOL. Everything is a spring these days, we just had the "Bradford Spring" after voting in an idiot in Bradford.

I don't agree with tuition fees at all, I think education should be free, as society as a whole reaps the benefits of having a well educated populous, and universities should not be run as a business. But if you are to have fees they must be a flat rate everywhere, otherwise it's simply unfair for one area to subsidise another.

No government right now can afford to give older citizens 'free' post-secondary education.

And yet we can afford wars, updating nuclear deterrents that won't be used and bailing out the banking sector. We can afford to fund the skilling of a population in a time where the developing world can beat the developed on costs for various unskilled and semi skilled jobs, in fact we can't afford not to.

Relapse wrote:I mentioned the part about the Quebec government looking at privatizing medicine to a Newfie bud of mine and he's all for it.
It sent him off telling me about women getting a year's maternity leave at half salary if they want it. He then told me of how.
his fatther can't get treatment for his back and shoulder because he's too old for funding that kind of operation.
He thentopped it off by talking about his brother who has to pay more than half his yearly earnings in taxes to pay for all the government programs.
I don't know if he's isolated in his views, but he has an extremely strong opinin.

As someone from a country with a national health service I can say that all privatisation of a health service is bad, although we don't discriminate on age (except in transplants, but that's kind of fair enough) so don't deny certain people treatment. There have been recent scandals around certain cancer drugs we supposedly can't afford while paying for breast implants and gastric bands which makes me really quite angry, but no system is perfect. The current government is privatising aspects of the NHS and people are really quite angry about it, including a large majority of doctors. I would say that the NHS is one of the things that makes me proud to be British.

One thing I do find interesting about the American debate on health is when Obama was trying to implement a similar system some Republican claimed that if Stephen Hawking was British he would be dead, Professor Hawking of course corrected them on that.
Story

**Mr Nobody**

Do you think people are beginning to protest for the sake of protesting? Every time the government does something, there's an angry mob, and if the this mob is held back, they claim their city has become an oppressive police state.

Or am I just thinking too right wing?

**LordofHats**

And yet we can afford wars, updating nuclear deterrents that won't be used and bailing out the banking sector. We can afford to fund the skilling of a population in a time where the developing world can beat the developed on costs for various unskilled and semi skilled jobs, in fact we can't afford not to.

Do you know how cheap higher education is in Quebec? Its about $20,000 a year. That's some of the cheapest college education you'll find in the developed world.

Do you know how much tuition was increased? $300 US.

In the US, people make Texas and California jokes. In Canada, they make Quebec jokes, cause they can be pretty crazy.

**dæl**

LordofHats wrote:
And yet we can afford wars, updating nuclear deterrents that won't be used and bailing out the banking sector. We can afford to fund the skilling of a population in a time where the developing world can beat the developed on costs for various unskilled and semi skilled jobs, in fact we can't afford not to.

Do you know how cheap higher education is in Quebec? Its about $20,000 a year. That's some of the cheapest college education you'll find in the developed world.

Do you know how much tuition was increased? $300 US.

In the US, people make Texas and California jokes. In Canada, they make Quebec jokes, cause they can be pretty crazy.

That's hardly the 75% hike that is mentioned. As an aside my university fees are £5k a year, which according to today's exchange rate works out at 5,000.00 GBP =7,968.75 CAD. This still doesn't change the fact that fees are prohibitive and discriminatory against the poor.

**Experiment 626**

dæl wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
And yet we can afford wars, updating nuclear deterrents that won't be used and bailing out the banking sector. We can afford to fund the skilling of a population in a time where the developing world can beat the developed on costs for various unskilled and semi skilled jobs, in fact we can't afford not to.

Do you know how cheap higher education is in Quebec? Its about $20,000 a year. That's some of the cheapest college education you'll find in the developed world.

Do you know how much tuition was increased? $300 US.

In the US, people make Texas and California jokes. In Canada, they make Quebec jokes, cause they can be pretty crazy.

That's hardly the 75% hike that is mentioned. As an aside my university fees are £5k a year, which according to today's exchange rate works out at 5,000.00 GBP =7,968.75 CAD. This still doesn't change the fact that fees are prohibitive and discriminatory against the poor.

Once the tuition hike is fully in place, (after 5 years!), Qubecers will still only be paying a little shy of $2800/year in average tution costs.

You know how much the 'average' tuition fee is here in Joketario?! Only about $6800/year.
Those over-entitled little snots who's never worked a day in their life and want absolutely everything handed to them can go

themselves. I know alot of my friends who'd have given their left nut to pay pennies like those spoiled Quebecers do for their education.

The Quebec stutdents are simply becoming an outright embarresment now, and things are actually getting quite scary for 'real' residents in Montreal as now the leftist loonies, big unions & anti-capitalist anarcists have joined in and are promising to ruin the city's summer events which bring in millions of dollars and thousands of tourists.
The Quebec government of corse, has no clue how to solve the issues.

**dæl**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Once the tuition hike is fully in place, (after 5 years!), Qubecers will still only be paying a little shy of $2800/year in average tution costs.

You know how much the 'average' tuition fee is here in Joketario?! Only about $6800/year.
Those over-entitled little snots who's never worked a day in their life and want absolutely everything handed to them can go themselves. I know alot of my friends who'd have given their left nut to pay pennies like those spoiled Quebecers do for their education.

So their current fees are $1600 then?

By the way I point to something I said earlier.

if you are to have fees they must be a flat rate everywhere, otherwise it's simply unfair for one area to subsidise another.

Bear in mind I live near the Welsh border, so while my education will cost £15,000 paid in full by me, theirs will be free paid for with my tax, if you want unfair, there you go.

**LordofHats**

I think I added an extra zero

oops.

**Kovnik Obama**

LordofHats wrote:[
Do you know how cheap higher education is in Quebec? Its about $20,000 a year. That's some of the cheapest college education you'll find in the developed world.

Do you know how much tuition was increased? $300 US.

That's this year. The overall hike will be over 1600$. And no, the cheapest higher educations in the developed world are around 200-300$ a year. It represent, for the average student, about 15% of the annual salary.

Those over-entitled little snots who's never worked a day in their life and want absolutely everything handed to them can go themselves. I know alot of my friends who'd have given their left nut to pay pennies like those spoiled Quebecers do for their education.

Never worked a day of my life? How the hell do you know me, or any of the protesters for that matter. I work 25-35 hours a week on top of my 4-5 university courses a session, you little

, I bet I know more about hard work than you will ever? When's the last time you had to walk 2 hours to your job cause you had to choose between eating and public transport that week?

**Melissia**

dæl wrote:As someone from a country with a national health service I can say that all privatisation of a health service is bad

As someone from a country with mostly private health care, I can assure you that it sucks for anyone who isn't rich.

**azazel the cat**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Relapse wrote:http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/13/12166345-maple-spring-protests-cuts-crackdown-on-student-rallies-roil-quebec?lite

All this and a 75 percent hike in tuition, too. It also appears that the Quebec government is looking at the privatization of health care.

And even with the tuition hike, Quebec will still have by far the lowest tuition fees in the entire country. And how does Quebec currently maintain their stupidly low tuition costs? By having the rest of the country pay it for them because they're deemed a 'have not' province.
(being a 'have-not' province means that they recieve monetary support from every province/territory running a profit)

And the postesters aren't even mostly the students anymore, but big unions, enviromental nut-jobs who think every buisness is evil, anti-capitalists and other far-leftwing selfrightous morons who'd try and turn our country into the next Greece.

You should get down on your hands and knees, kiss the ground, and declare it a proxy for the feet of those protesters. They are protecting your freedom of expression.

You might find their complaining to be more like whining, and as a resident of Vancouver -the most expensive city in Canada- I am not unsympathetic to your ire. However, the instant that a government thinks it is over to outlaw disagreement with their policies, and take away your right to do so, is the second that you lose everything. You are making the mistake of thinking that the principle is any different. But what if the government told you that you were forbidden from protesting against a 99% tax increase? You'd care then. So you should care now, because the principle is the same. What you are upset about is simply a matter of taste, but that is no longer what this fight is about.

LordofHats wrote:
And yet we can afford wars, updating nuclear deterrents that won't be used and bailing out the banking sector. We can afford to fund the skilling of a population in a time where the developing world can beat the developed on costs for various unskilled and semi skilled jobs, in fact we can't afford not to.

Do you know how cheap higher education is in Quebec? Its about $20,000 a year. That's some of the cheapest college education you'll find in the developed world.

Do you know how much tuition was increased? $300 US.

In the US, people make Texas and California jokes. In Canada, they make Quebec jokes, cause they can be pretty crazy.

The reason you weren't drafted to go to go fight Afghanistan (or Korea or even WWII, depending on your age) is because of Quebec, so maybe this evens out.

**Relapse**

I've always liked Quebec, since I was a kid living in Northern Maine. I've never really met anyone from there I disliked and would go visit friends there with my parents.
The first girl I ever kissed was a French girl from Quebec.
Maybe I just hung around the right people from there, so my impression is that maybe there's a good reason these protests are going on.
I admit it's been a while since I've had a chance to get back there, but my memory of the people I knew, and it was quite a few, is a good one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, I am part Frog.

**Melissia**

My Canadian friends mock Quebec, but they also mock Newfie too, it's pretty much just friendly ribbing AFAIK (like joking that the French can take Quebec if they want, reminding me of jokes non-Texans make about Texas secessionists).

**Kovnik Obama**

Melissia wrote:My Canadian friends mock Quebec, but they also mock Newfie too, it's pretty much just friendly ribbing AFAIK (like joking that the French can take Quebec if they want, reminding me of jokes non-Texans make about Texas secessionists).

Mostly. I lived in Alberta, and while I got nicknames which would have pissed off a few of my friends, I didn't feel any aggression, except maybe once, but he was a dumb 16 year old, so that doesn't count. Ridiculing the Sovereignty movement is a bit normal too, since the 'Canadian identity' is something that just emerged, while Quebec nationalism in its current form dates from the 40s. Most Canadians I've talked to don't have so much a strong national feeling as a certain pride that things just seems to be less screwed up here than elsewhere. To them, wishing to separate on historical grounds seems stupid.

But anyway, discourse like the one of Experiment really pisses me off. It speaks out of ignorance of the other models of education available (and sometimes superior), of ignorance of the long history of backstabbing from both the Federal side and the Provincial side, and, in the end, the fact that you do have to make it up to us. The Canadian claim on Quebec is one gained through conquest, in a time where the right of conquest is no longer considered valid.

On top of things, we've been awfully nice. Any of the PQ governments elected could've legally declared the unilateral secession of Quebec. We've picked the longest and most difficult path of achieving our goals out of respect for democracy. And we're depicted as a bunch of whiners and beggers. I rage so much, sometimes...

And one more thing. How the hell can you not consider free education until the doctorate, as a social project, something to be desired? Neolibs and social conservatives seriously takes out all the magick and friendship out of this world...

**Experiment 626**

I'm sorry, but please understand that if Quebec was it's own nation, your GDP to debt ratio would be about 98%! Ie: you'd be right behind Greece in terms of your finanical woes. It's getting tiresome that one province is basically being given a 'free pass' to do whatever the hell they want while the rest of the country gets to support you.

Sure, free education for all is a grand idea. It's not actually realistic though, unless you want to see taxes jump through the roof.
So yes, it makes ME pissed to see over-privilaged students spend over 100 days continuously whine that they'll have to pay-up for their education, (like the rest of us do). But that hike is being spread out over at least 5 years! (the government even offered to make it 7). And even after the tution hike is all said and done, you'll still be paying the lowest cost in the entire country!
You want to know what 'unaffordable' education looks like? Try going to school in Ontario. Enjoy that average just shy of $6800/year tution fee.

And then the student protesters go too far and start actively disrupting classes for the few who want to keep at it, to the point that the Liberals just up an end the current semester. (So in essense, those 'protesters' are no better than thieves) Oh, and only in Quebec do we see student protesters pelting police with rocks & molatoves, while smashing up the building fronts of government offices and blocking off whole sections of the city which has cost the Montreal economy at a minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenues...

**dæl**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Sure, free education for all is a grand idea. It's not actually realistic though, unless you want to see taxes jump through the roof.

I'm sorry but you're wrong there, we had free university for all until about 1998, but we didn't have massive taxes and since it's no longer been free we haven't had a massive reduction in tax. You also must factor in that graduates will generally pay far more in tax than non graduates so are still in a way paying for their education. To dismiss the idea of everyone having an equal chance to fulfil their potential as "unrealistic" is wrong.

**Fafnir**

People talk about Quebec having low costs for tuition, but the point isn't that it's low, but that it's being increased at all.

I have friends who talk about the low tuition costs at Quebec universities, but they (in addition to myself, living in Alberta) have relatively low education costs in comparison to the US and other places too. Just because our costs are relatively low, is that an excuse to hike them too? I know they'd all go crazy if they got a price hike to their education.

Honestly, I agree with Dael on this.

And for all the discussion about "free" education being impossible, consider all the unnecessary costs that the Harper government has been incurring on military and prison expenses that shouldn't even have been made in the first place, and how that could have gone a long way in subsidizing the education of thousands upon thousands of students.

**azazel the cat**

Kovnik Obama wrote:On top of things, we've been awfully nice. Any of the PQ governments elected could've legally declared the unilateral secession of Quebec. We've picked the longest and most difficult path of achieving our goals out of respect for democracy. And we're depicted as a bunch of whiners and beggers. I rage so much, sometimes...

Heh, a unilateral secession would be a lovely way to re-live the end result of the October Crisis. "Je mais souviens" indeed.

PQ needs to lose its "Distinct Society" status, or else that status needs to be granted to all of the other provinces and territories. PQ is not special other than it whines and cries more than anyone -the Kitchen Accord being a great example of such- and Trudeau had the right idea about that little "distinct society" title. (about most things, actually)

If PQ wants to secede, that wouldbe fine so long as PQ pays off its share of the national debt. (something like 35% of the total). However, that never seems to be an option.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who so far has shown support for the students in PQ.

**Kovnik Obama**

Experiment 626 wrote:I'm sorry, but please understand that if Quebec was it's own nation, your GDP to debt ratio would be about 98%! Ie: you'd be right behind Greece in terms of your finanical woes. It's getting tiresome that one province is basically being given a 'free pass' to do whatever the hell they want while the rest of the country gets to support you.

I'm no economist, I've studied politics, law and philo, but care to explain where the 98% came from? Current Quebec debt goes up by 10.2 billions a year, and our annual GDP is 303.7 billion. Our total debt is 250 billion. I've no clue how you calculate a GDP to debt ration, or what it actually means, but I don't see how you can go from these numbers to 98%.

Sure, free education for all is a grand idea. It's not actually realistic though, unless you want to see taxes jump through the roof.

480 million dollars, to be exact. Compared to a GDP of 303.7 billion, that doesn't sound so bad... Compare that to the fact that the Libs are giving 300 million in gifts in this budget alone, and it sounds down right ridiculous...

So yes, it makes ME pissed to see over-privilaged students spend over 100 days continuously whine that they'll have to pay-up for their education, (like the rest of us do). But that hike is being spread out over at least 5 years! (the government even offered to make it 7). And even after the tution hike is all said and done, you'll still be paying the lowest cost in the entire country!
You want to know what 'unaffordable' education looks like? Try going to school in Ontario. Enjoy that average just shy of $6800/year tution fee.

Funny how the student associations in Ontario seems to be on our side.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:PQ needs to lose its "Distinct Society" status, or else that status needs to be granted to all of the other provinces and territories.

If they claim it, yes. How dickish do one need to be to deny the existence of another's Nation? It's just that our Nation as a longer history, and deeper roots in this territory than most other provinces.

And we could definitely pay off our share of the debt through advantageous energy rates.

**azazel the cat**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:PQ needs to lose its "Distinct Society" status, or else that status needs to be granted to all of the other provinces and territories.

If they claim it, yes. How dickish do one need to be to deny the existence of another's Nation? It's just that our Nation as a longer history, and deeper roots in this territory than most other provinces.

And we could definitely pay off our share of the debt through advantageous energy rates.

Sorry, I'm confused. What "Nation" are you referring to?

**Alexzandvar**

"Protest against limiting protests"

Yo dawg...

**Kovnik Obama**

azazel the cat wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:PQ needs to lose its "Distinct Society" status, or else that status needs to be granted to all of the other provinces and territories.

If they claim it, yes. How dickish do one need to be to deny the existence of another's Nation? It's just that our Nation as a longer history, and deeper roots in this territory than most other provinces.

And we could definitely pay off our share of the debt through advantageous energy rates.

Sorry, I'm confused. What "Nation" are you referring to?

Quebec's nationalism, of course.

@Alexzandvar ; yeah, the Law didn't really have the effect wished for. It was a stupid law ; all groups of 50 people of more have to give the police their itinerary, for the next year. Including people going to Cirque du Soleil in bus groups. During an election year... on top of things. Yeah...

**Mr Nobody**

azazel the cat wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:PQ needs to lose its "Distinct Society" status, or else that status needs to be granted to all of the other provinces and territories.

If they claim it, yes. How dickish do one need to be to deny the existence of another's Nation? It's just that our Nation as a longer history, and deeper roots in this territory than most other provinces.

And we could definitely pay off our share of the debt through advantageous energy rates.

Sorry, I'm confused. What "Nation" are you referring to?

I agree, Quebec has a deep history, especially the part where the french territories were lost to the British, making the majority of Canada English speaking instead of French.

If it wasn't for Trudeau, it could be argued that Quebec would have already lost its French identity, and this distinct society status wouldn't be an issue.

Right or wrong, Quebec isn't a nation, it's a province. Canada is a nation.

Off topic, sorry.

**Kovnik Obama**

I agree, Quebec has a deep history, especially the part where the french territories were lost to the British, making the majority of Canada English speaking instead of French.

There's a crapload of other parts too, not all of them directly related to Quebec as a territory. The Red River Rebellion, the Canadian-American War, the Patriots, the protests over the conscription, the Lake Meach Accord, etc...

If it wasn't for Trudeau, it could be argued that Quebec would have already lost its French identity, and this distinct society status wouldn't be an issue.

Aaaaand now I rage. The stated intent after the conquest was to assimilate the French, and somehow, after 300 years of defending our culture, we needed Trudeau to come and tell us to renounce our ideals of sovereignty in order to survive another 30-40 years as a distinct society? I don't understand that claim at all.

Right or wrong, Quebec isn't a nation, it's a province. Canada is a nation.

Off topic, sorry.

Mostly wrong :

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2][3] In international relations, nation can refer to a country or sovereign state.[1] The word nation can more specifically refer to people of North American Indians, such as the Cherokee Nation that prefer this term over the contested term tribe.[1]

According to Joseph Stalin writing in 1913 in Marxism and the National Question: "a nation is not a racial or tribal, but a historically constituted community of people;" "a nation is not a casual or ephemeral conglomeration, but a stable community of people;" "a common language is one of the characteristic features of a nation;" "a nation is formed only as a result of lengthy and systematic intercourse, as a result of people living together generation after generation;" "a common territory is one of the characteristic features of a nation;" "a common economic life, economic cohesion, is one of the characteristic features of a nation;" "a common psychological make-up, which manifests itself in a common culture, is one of the characteristic features of a nation;" "A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture." According to Stalin, this would exclude Jews as they have no common territory

**azazel the cat**

Mr Nobody wrote:Right or wrong, Quebec isn't a nation, it's a province. Canada is a nation.

Off topic, sorry.

Actually, that's kinda on-topic, at least as far as this conversation has been going.

Anyway, 'nation' does actually apply here... you're thinking of 'nation-sate', which is what Canada is.

**Kovnik Obama**

azazel the cat wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:Right or wrong, Quebec isn't a nation, it's a province. Canada is a nation.

Off topic, sorry.

Actually, that's kinda on-topic, at least as far as this conversation has been going.

Anyway, 'nation' does actually apply here... you're thinking of 'nation-sate', which is what Canada is.

What he said. Basically, Quebec is currently has much a Nation as the Native Nations.