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Got stuck on this one when playing a game recently, rolled for E.L and failed anyway.

Here's the example:

Necron Overlord on his own and Necron Warriors vs Wolf Lord. Wolf Lord kills Overlord and does sweeping advance on the Warriors.

Question is, can the Overlord can back up? The Overlord wasn't part of the Warrior unit, also if a ever living model was in a unit which has been destroyed by sweeping advance can it get back up?

There was a really nasty thread about this a while ago.

It boiled down to units being caught in sweeping advances not being removed as casualties, thus they can't use RP or EL

Whether that's still the perception, I'm unsure.

If the character is alive when his unit is swept, he is removed from play with no recourse to return, ever living won't work on a model that is swept.

If the character dies to melee attacks before his unit is swept, the game breaks because Everliving tells you "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols" however, you can't place the Character in coherency because the unit no longer exists, so you will just have to decide with your opponent how such a situation should be handled.

Note: There is a FAQ that suggests in the second instance you default to just resurrecting within 3" of the counter as though you weren't attached to a unit when removed as a casualty, but there's no rules support or explicit FAQ addressing it.

As mentioned, the Overlord WAS NOT part of the Warrior unit. He was also killed before the remaining Warriors were swept by the Wolf Lord.

Can he get back up?

mercer wrote:As mentioned, the Overlord WAS NOT part of the Warrior unit. He was also killed before the remaining Warriors were swept by the Wolf Lord.

Can he get back up?

Still up to debate.
Since his unit was part of the combat, it was still swept - even if he was dead at the time.
There's no FAQ covering this.

Decide at your table.

If the overlord was not attached to the warrior unit, then he can most certainly stand up, as sweeping advances are applied to the individual units, not the combat as a whole. The overlord was already down and was not attached to the warriors, so no SA can be applied to him. Resolve the rest of the combats, then check for his roll to get back up at the end of the phase.

Maelstrom808 wrote:If the overlord was not attached to the warrior unit, then he can most certainly stand up, as sweeping advances are applied to the individual units, not the combat as a whole. The overlord was already down and was not attached to the warriors, so no SA can be applied to him. Resolve the rest of the combats, then check for his roll to get back up at the end of the phase.

Actually, that's a good point. I apologize for mis-remembering the SA rules.

Heh, I screw up rules all the time, no need to apologize to me. I had to double check this one just to make sure I was right

Drunkspleen wrote:If the character is alive when his unit is swept, he is removed from play with no recourse to return, ever living won't work on a model that is swept.

If the character dies to melee attacks before his unit is swept, the game breaks because Everliving tells you "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols" however, you can't place the Character in coherency because the unit no longer exists, so you will just have to decide with your opponent how such a situation should be handled.

Note: There is a FAQ that suggests in the second instance you default to just resurrecting within 3" of the counter as though you weren't attached to a unit when removed as a casualty, but there's no rules support or explicit FAQ addressing it.

No wounder it took so long for GW to digitalize their products. They would be the worst programmers ever.

rigeld2 wrote:

mercer wrote:As mentioned, the Overlord WAS NOT part of the Warrior unit. He was also killed before the remaining Warriors were swept by the Wolf Lord.

Can he get back up?

Still up to debate.
Since his unit was part of the combat, it was still swept - even if he was dead at the time.
There's no FAQ covering this.

Decide at your table.

I've said this twice now, the Overlord IS NOT part of the Warrior unit. The Overlord is seperate and is not attached to the Warriors in any shape or for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:If the overlord was not attached to the warrior unit, then he can most certainly stand up, as sweeping advances are applied to the individual units, not the combat as a whole. The overlord was already down and was not attached to the warriors, so no SA can be applied to him. Resolve the rest of the combats, then check for his roll to get back up at the end of the phase.

That's what I thought and what I did, but he did not get back up

mercer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

mercer wrote:As mentioned, the Overlord WAS NOT part of the Warrior unit. He was also killed before the remaining Warriors were swept by the Wolf Lord.

Can he get back up?

Still up to debate.
Since his unit was part of the combat, it was still swept - even if he was dead at the time.
There's no FAQ covering this.

Decide at your table.

I've said this twice now, the Overlord IS NOT part of the Warrior unit. The Overlord is seperate and is not attached to the Warriors in any shape or for.

rigeld2 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:If the overlord was not attached to the warrior unit, then he can most certainly stand up, as sweeping advances are applied to the individual units, not the combat as a whole. The overlord was already down and was not attached to the warriors, so no SA can be applied to him. Resolve the rest of the combats, then check for his roll to get back up at the end of the phase.

Actually, that's a good point. I apologize for mis-remembering the SA rules.

Because obviously you missed it.

mercer wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:If the overlord was not attached to the warrior unit, then he can most certainly stand up, as sweeping advances are applied to the individual units, not the combat as a whole. The overlord was already down and was not attached to the warriors, so no SA can be applied to him. Resolve the rest of the combats, then check for his roll to get back up at the end of the phase.

That's what I thought and what I did, but he did not get back up

Yeah, in 11 games I think I've had an overlord stand back up maybe three times...and in putting 3 wounds on him with the 2+ save I've rolled all 1s three times now

EL can still roll. They are still treated as casualties.

This edition: up for debate.
Next edition: it looks like they are finally clarifying the whole "removed as casualties" vs "removed from play" thing. It's looking like good news for Necrons, but we'll have to wait for the book to be certain.

Fafnir13 wrote:This edition: up for debate.
Next edition: it looks like they are finally clarifying the whole "removed as casualties" vs "removed from play" thing. It's looking like good news for Necrons, but we'll have to wait for the book to be certain.

If the Overlord did not start the combat attached to the warriors, there really is no debate. He can still make his roll.

I'm praying to any deity that will listen that 6th retains that little section from the pancake rules, but we'll see. It's almost too logical of a move for GW.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Fafnir13 wrote:This edition: up for debate.
Next edition: it looks like they are finally clarifying the whole "removed as casualties" vs "removed from play" thing. It's looking like good news for Necrons, but we'll have to wait for the book to be certain.

If the Overlord did not start the combat attached to the warriors, there really is no debate. He can still make his roll.

I'm praying to any deity that will listen that 6th retains that little section from the pancake rules, but we'll see. It's almost too logical of a move for GW.

It would be nice if 6th edition fixed problems, of course, given most of the rumours read as some sort of horrible reverse wishlist of everything the game doesn't need, I'm not particularly hopeful.