Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,
just re-reading the rules on thunderclap and was wondering what would happen if you tried to cast it in a transport. Would it place a large blast beside the tank or would the power be unable to be cast?

You would place the template next to the fire point (as that is where the model "is"), however, I would be fine playing it next to the transport, as close to the fire point as possible.

First, you would have to show your opponent what Thunderclap was, since they probably have never seen it cast before. After that I agree that you would place the large blast against the edge of the transport.

Oh I know, I have never ever seen it used.
I would allow anyone that used it to cast it and place the marker beside the transport but RAW is that it must be placed touching the priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am looking to see if the RAW is a lot more restrictive then any RAI or TIHIWP.

I believe my answer is RAW, including having to show your opponent such an ability exists. (I just wrote that in my book in purple crayon.)

On a side note, I meant blast marker, in my previous post. Not sure why I said template.

jwolf wrote:First, you would have to show your opponent what Thunderclap was, since they probably have never seen it cast before. After that I agree that you would place the large blast against the edge of the transport.

Ok I'll bite! What is Thunderclap then and what does it do?
I'm intrigued now

Large blast, S3 AP5 Psychic power. Only Njal would ever have it, and he has better things to do with his powers, for sure.

A terminator priest with a large squad with it might use it.
Also I am not sure RAW is as clear as you make it, I agree however that is how it should be played.

p66 says you measure to the hull any time you need to measure to an embarked unit, so RAW suggests anywhere on the hull - not necessarily on a fire point

However, since it is a psychic shooting attack, would you not use the fire point?

You would need a Fire Point to draw LoS but you could place it anywhere touching the hull is my interpertation.

I disagree. The way the power works is similar to a template weapon, except you use a blast marker. Since the template is placed touching the fire point, I would say that (when using this power) you would also be required to place the blast marker touching the fire point. Again, however, this is not how I would expect it to be played.

By the pure RAW of the ability itself, I think it's unusable in a vehicle, you can't place something in contact with his base when the model isn't actually on the table, and placing something in contact with is NOT a form of measuring, so the "measure to the hull" rule never kicks in.

That being said, given the similarity in function to that of a template weapon, and the fact Template weapons have no special allowances and thus also, by RAW, should not work out of a fire point, I would say handle it the same way you handle Template weapons, which in most instances will mean placing the blast marker in contact with the fire point.

There's most definitely no rules support for placing it in contact with any old part of the hull that you want though.

Hard RAW(please don't make me ever type that again), would be as JWolf stated.

Applied FAQ would have the marker placed as a blast template as Happyjew states.

Unfortunately We aren't ever told to apply the FAQ answers to similar rules and there have been differences between similar rule in the FAQs before.

So in the end discuss it with your opponent; explain what the RAW says to do and what the nearest FAQ says to do and come to an agreement.

So, RAW, show the entry to your opponent, because, honestly who uses it?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Hard RAW(please don't make me ever type that again), would be as JWolf stated.

There is absolutely no RAW support for substituting the hull of the vehicle for the Rune Priests base.

No, the other half of his post: Place the edge of the marker against any edge of the vehicle.

But I appreciate what you did there



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Hard RAW(please don't make me ever type that again), would be as JWolf stated.

There is absolutely no RAW support for substituting the hull of the vehicle for the Rune Priests base.

You know what, upon review of the relevant rules; it is as Happyjew states in RAW.

There is raw for substituting the vehicles hull for the RP's Base, but not for shooting(brb page 66, embarking; and BRB page 3, measuring distances).

But since this is a PSA; then we must go with BRB page 66, Fire points, mixed with BRB page 3, Measuring distances.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You know what, upon review of the relevant rules; it is as Happyjew states in RAW.

There is raw for substituting the vehicles hull for the RP's Base, but not for shooting(brb page 66, embarking; and BRB page 3, measuring distances).

But since this is a PSA; then we must go with BRB page 66, Fire points, mixed with BRB page 3, Measuring distances.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, it's certainly the best way to handle it in line with the rules as far as I'm concerned, but I really don't feel you can call the vehicles hull the rune priest's base in this instance because there's no distance being measured, In fact, if you were to treat touching a base as a measurement of 0 inches, and allow touching a base to happen via a vehicles hull it causes all sorts of problems with regards to assaulting embarked units.

Given there's strictly speaking no measurement occuring, and the fact that to assume a measurement and use those rules for measuring to an embarked unit fundamentally breaks part of the game, I really feel the only reasonable reaction is to say that, when any rule requires something to touch the base of a model it can't work when said model is in a vehicle.

The Placing of the marker to the Base is the exact same way of finding the range for thunderclap as finding the use of the range "template".

In order to find out what is in range of a template weapon you place the template against the models base.

When a model with a template weapon is in a transport, you place said template against the fire point.

So it stands to reason that as the RP model cannot have the marker placed against his base, but we are given permission to use the PSA, and the PSA has an effective "range" of "marker"(that is to say that you place the marker to determine the range/AOE); then you follow the closest rules that govern.

Building a stawman about embarked units getting assaulted is never useful: there is no permission granted to Assault Embarked units, there is permission for a rune priest to use thunderclap while embarked(as it is a PSA). There are also rules that govern measuring from an embarked rune priest for the purposes of firing, and measuring is always done from the base.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Placing of the marker to the Base is the exact same way of finding the range for thunderclap as finding the use of the range "template".

In order to find out what is in range of a template weapon you place the template against the models base.

When a model with a template weapon is in a transport, you place said template against the fire point.

So it stands to reason that as the RP model cannot have the marker placed against his base, but we are given permission to use the PSA, and the PSA has an effective "range" of "marker"(that is to say that you place the marker to determine the range/AOE); then you follow the closest rules that govern.

Building a stawman about embarked units getting assaulted is never useful: there is no permission granted to Assault Embarked units, there is permission for a rune priest to use thunderclap while embarked(as it is a PSA). There are also rules that govern measuring from an embarked rune priest for the purposes of firing, and measuring is always done from the base.

It's not a strawman and you don't need specific permision, you are given permission to assault units within assault range of your own unit, you are given permission to measure to the hull to determine distance to an embarked model, you claim that it's perfectly legitimate to determine base contact through the hull, therefore, you have permission to assault models inside a transport by declaring a charge against them and moving into base contact with the hull of the vehicle they are in.

It's misleading to say that placing a template for a template weapon equates to measuring a distance, nothing in the Template rules says that is the case, and the BRB never allows for measuring distances to be anything other than an actual measurement with a proper measuring device.

Good luck with that assault.

As has been stated, you may not assault the embarked unit. You can assault the vehicle IN WHICH the unit is embarked, but not the unit.

I agree that you can't, because nothing can touch the base of a model using the hull of a vehicle as a proxy because It's not a measurement.

My point is, if you allow that to happen, it opens up all sorts of other problems, and that assault is the most obvious one.

So, blast templates over the Rhino are over the Rune Priest?

Is that what I am reading?

As a PSA, Thunderclap should use the firepoint, just like all other PSA's.