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I got into tau a few months ago, and I occasionally play Dawn of War, because I enjoy 40k a lot.
So when I was playing the tau commander on Dawn of War 2. I unlocked the Burst cannon and thought, the lowly burst cannon, how did this make it into the game.
However I quickly realized that its pinning capability made it very utilitarian, Then I looked back at my codex, and my army... the stealth teams, the crisis suits, a lot of my army revolves around this gun.
Its not a bad gun, but its not great either... its the same strength as a fire-warrior, but so much of my army revolves around strength 5 ap 5 that it feels a bit redundant.

I looked at my army and realized that if just this one aspect were changed, that if burst cannons had pinning... so much of my tau army would make sense, it almost feels as though it were designed into the tau but that
it was taken away for some reason. It would be like poison weapons for the dark eldar, and fit perfectly with there tactics and how the tau fight.

I would normally prefer to lurk, but this time I feel compelled to speak on this matter.

I think tau will get a redux and new rules on a lot of their weapons once they are redone in 6th. Hang in there!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think tau will get a redux and new rules on a lot of their weapons once they are redone in 6th. Hang in there!

Phototoxin wrote:I think tau will get a redux and new rules on a lot of their weapons once they are redone in 6th. Hang in there!

I do agree, as I imagine the chaos marines or any other army that is older than 5 years will... but after last spring I have come to expect that the best the tau will see for the next year is perhaps a FAQ at best... If we are lucky to even get that.

ts true that the lowly burst cannon isnt very impressive when compared to the assault cannon(essentialy the imperial version).

Maybe bost its ROF? Assault4-5-6? Hopefuly the Tau will get a boost in 6th ed-they need it.

master of ordinance wrote:ts true that the lowly burst cannon isnt very impressive when compared to the assault cannon(essentialy the imperial version).

Maybe bost its ROF? Assault4-5-6? Hopefuly the Tau will get a boost in 6th ed-they need it.

st
From looking at the leaked 6th edition real or not, it had the idea of assault 4 and while an extra shot is nice... it is just adding to the pool of strength 5 ap 5 weapons without really contributing anything meaningful.
If I had to choose between an extra shot or pinning, id choose pinning, because it adds to the tactics you can use on the table... if i wanted to put down more rounds id be an ork...

Because it is just a S5 ap 5 gun I don't see why it would ever get pinning. I think it's future will at best be higher range and/or more shots.

It's a plasma gating gun. Pinning would probably come from the sheer amount of fire hitting the target and pinning them down.

erikwfg wrote:Because it is just a S5 ap 5 gun I don't see why it would ever get pinning. I think it's future will at best be higher range and/or more shots.

The pulse carbine is a strength 5 ap 5 weapon carried by firewarriors , that is assault 1 instead of 3 and it has pinning... it also has the exact same range as the burst cannon, it is not a special weapon, it is interchangeable with the pulse rifle normally seen on firewarriors.

The carbine is pinning because of the attached grenadelauncher.

Shadox wrote:The carbine is pinning because of the attached grenadelauncher.

You might want to look at the grenades it is shooting and how they are used....
And the pulse carbine again...

Photon grenades IIRC which detonate in noise and multispectral light. IMHO the perfect description for a pinning weapon as it disorient the enemy and handicap their perception. The Burst Cannon does none of those. There is a main difference between pinning and the suppressive fire from DoW 2. As long as this is not added into the game (Then also things like the HB should get it and it should work differently than just force a morale check, maybe slow down the movement etc), the Burst Cannon should not be altered in this direction (It needs to be altered in one way to be useful tough).

I've slapped mine down to 3 points, range up to 24", Assault up to 4, and added Pinning on to-wound rolls of 6.

I've also added the heavy burst cannon, which is 36", S6, AP4, Assault 4, and pinning on to-wound rolls of 6, as a sort of mix between the Autocannon and the Burst Cannon.

Shadox; for now, suppressive fire is pretty much lumped in with pinning under the current 40k rules. The Heavy Bolter indeed has many things which need fixing with it, but we are not here to discus it in that context; suffice to say that fixes that would be good for the heavy bolter would also benefit the burst cannon.

Shadox wrote:Photon grenades IIRC which detonate in noise and multispectral light. IMHO the perfect description for a pinning weapon as it disorient the enemy and handicap their perception. The Burst Cannon does none of those. There is a main difference between pinning and the suppressive fire from DoW 2. As long as this is not added into the game (Then also things like the HB should get it and it should work differently than just force a morale check, maybe slow down the movement etc), the Burst Cannon should not be altered in this direction (It needs to be altered in one way to be useful tough).

Hmm... well, I do agree that the HB would be better like that. But what I was referring to is as I interpreted it was that the pulse carbine had the capability of attaching the photon grenade onto the gun... giving physical representation on the model, and that the photon grenade was only used at the beginning of an assault to reduce the attacks inflicted onto the unit. And that the carbine was separate from the photon grenade in that one did not have to buy the photon grenade to get the pinning capability, are we saying that photon grenades come with pulse carbines? And so in affect everything that has a pulse carbine I.E. the gun drones also get photon grenades?

I am not simply saying that the Burst Cannon is weak, I am saying that its role is redundant, by the mass variation of S5 AP5 weaponry.. I am also saying that if this were changed a lot of the mechanics of how the tau worked would start to make sence. It would improve the stealth teams ability to harass. give better protection to vehicles from assault, it would fit with the theme behind the tau...

Ringsead wrote: But what I was referring to is as I interpreted it was that the pulse carbine had the capability of attaching the photon grenade onto the gun... giving physical representation on the model, and that the photon grenade was only used at the beginning of an assault to reduce the attacks inflicted onto the unit. And that the carbine was separate from the photon grenade in that one did not have to buy the photon grenade to get the pinning capability, are we saying that photon grenades come with pulse carbines? And so in affect everything that has a pulse carbine I.E. the gun drones also get photon grenades?

I think you are misunderstanding here, that there is a difference between the photon grenades used as defensive grenades to hinder the enemy from striking with the full force on assault as they obscure the exact position of the wielder and the attached photon grenadelauncher of the carbine. The GL is twinlinked with the carbine and fires a single photon grenade (I assume, that FWs would use multiple if getting charged) at the target additionally to the pulse shot to disturb the enemy at his movements and give him the feeling of being abandoned by his allies as he is not able to spot them. The effect may be similar but the grenadelauncher fires over distance and you can be equipped with both and have to pay for both (at least in theory, as the carbine is free but you are 'paying' with the benefits of the pulse rifle you are replacing.).

I personally really like the burst cannons on the stealth suits, but for their cost the damage output even with 'just' a S5 AP5 weapon is to low, but I think the suggestion of chris is a nice compromise between just pinning and just more shots and it would be worth a try.

I would love to see weapon buffs for tau exclusive weapons. In the next codex, I can easily see burst cannons being S5AP5 Heavy 4 or assault 4 and smartmissiles obviously compensating by becoming S6AP4 (which is perfectly reasonable for an advanced missile, even guard krak grenades are s6 ffs)

Shootier dakka, harder hitting dakka

Something I'm using to replace the current SMS on vehicles, as my HBC is already similar to what you've described:

Micro Burst-Rockets: A ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range:48” S:5* AP:4* Special: Heavy 3

*For every "Hit", the Strength increases by 1 (from 5 to a maximum of 8) and the AP improves by 1 (from 4 to a maximum of 1) until the end of the turn. Roll each Micro Burst-Rocket in a unit separately.

I don't know if I'm going to be giving them as options to piranhas or limit them to the medium/heavy tanks. I might allow Broadsides to swap out their Railguns for them.

I was busy so I missed the conversation, but Shadox is right about carbines, grenades, and why they pin. The logic i'm using in saying the burst cannon shouldn't be pinning is that why would that pin yet 3 models using a pulse rifle don't pin? Going further, tyranids and IG have weapons which fire 20 shots each without pinning, so volume of fire doesn't seem to count.

S5 weapons are scary because they can wound up to T8. I would be more supportive of a fire warrior squad causing pinning because no one wants to get within rapid fire range. However, it seems the only real benefit to these guns seems to be psychological.

Erik: Nids and IG were written with terrible internal and external balance, by a man so far removed from the actual gameplay of 40K as to be comical. How come a man with a lascannon that just exploded a tank isnt pinning but one with a sniper rifle that tinks off a guardsman's armour 83% of the time is, in the same squad with the same bs? BECAUSE MAGIC! The logic you're using doesn't apply to 40K because 40K logic has no internal consistency; you can't extrapolate, you can't deduct or infer, you can only look at what's there and say "this is" or "this isn't".

S5 weapons aren't scary because they can wound up to T8. There's only 1 T8 model in the game atm. They're scary because they can glance AV11. However, they're NOT scary on BS3 10 point models that can't move and fire more than 12". They're NOT scary in CC, and they're NOT scary because of rapidfire - pinning or not.

A few things to consider: Pinning affects the majority of units less than 30% of the time.

Pinning requires 2 rolls to succeed, and an armour save to fail, before it even becomes a thing.

Regardless of the number of wounds that pin, only 1 test is made per unit shooting.



The difference between one weapon spewing hot death and 3 guys you can quantify with unintimidating weapons and a reasonable rate of fire IS psychological; PINNING is psychological/rationalogical. The entire morale/leadership system of 40k has been awkward and clunky since forever, but we make due.

The problem is that pulse carbines have the 'fluff' of sending off a photon grenade to account for pinning. Cool. Flavourful. Useless; no one ever takes pulse carbines, because pinning is pointless at <18", and the units that can take them are inefficient and expensive.

The other problem is that Burst Cannons suffer the same drawbacks and problems that Heavy Bolters do - RoF and range and cost can't be easily altered because of the way the weapon is set up, and the way the rest of the weapons surrounding it are. No one NEEDS S5 weapons of any sort; they serve no purpose. S6 grants ID and pops vehicles more easily. S7 lets you affect AV13. S8 is ID for MEQ and usually comes with an AP3 tag. When you can get an S8 AP3 PLUS an S4 AP5 blast for 5 points more than 3 S5 AP4 shots, there's simply no contest. When you can shell out 8 points for 2 S7 shots instead of 3 S5 ones, why the hell not? There is no niche that allows S5 to become useful in the current meta, and the special rules we can give these weapons are limited, lest they become 'mini assault cannons' for cheap points.

The psychological effect I was referring to was on the player, not in the game. I think S5 is outrageous for a basic trooper, and I don't want to even see what that army would do to my DE vehicles.

The only defense I can come up with for magic sniper rifles is that they pin because of the psychological effect on the target. A lascannon should do the same, but supposedly it's firing at other targets. The sniper being unseen also plays a large role, so really it's just a badly implemented set of rules. If they at least did something reliably I'd think different. Oh well.

Come to think of it, stealth troops are supposedly harder to see, so I wouldn't be opposed to them pinning. They would realistically be like a hidden machine gun nest. They still are badly implemented, but there's worse things in the game. Still not seeing other units pinning though.

Sniper isn't unseen, he's standing right beside the lascannon guy and the guy yelling orders.

DE have no problem tabling Tau 100% of the time. The points->firepower ratios are so overwhelmingly in your favour it's unreal. You pay ~120 points for: 5 guys with splinter rifles in a fast skimmer with a 5+ invulnerable that shoots either an S8 AP2 lance or 12 4+ poisoned shots.

I pay 145 points for 6 guys in a closed-top skimmer that can fire up to 3 BS3 s5 ap5 shots, and 4 TLBS2 S5 AP5 pinning shots, with a 4+ cover save outside 12". I can't turboboost, cant take special weapons, cant pop av12+, and the guys inside are worse in CC/morale than yours, with crappier EMP/Haywires.

You pay 115 points for 3 S8 AP2 lance shots on BS4. I pay 160+ for 1 S10 AP1 shot on BS4, or 245+ points for 3 S10 AP1 shots at TLBS3.

It really comes down to "I can spam plas/missilepods, but your transports 1shot my mans with no armour save due to ID and each one costs as much or more as your transports."

Microburst rockets sound like something that'd be shorter ranged. Also, whats the reason for the cascading damage?

And I wonder what would happen with tau if you just gave +1 BS to all pure tau units across the entire codex. I'd love to see tau be the first army where basic troops are BS4 and advance troops are BS5 by default instead of the normal +1WS +1I you see everywhere else.

In regards to the burst cannon I would be deliriously happy if next codex it fired four shots and/or had a 24 inch range. Pinning not required.

I would also love one more shot from the carbines, pinning could be dropped in exchange, unless pinning is much better next edition.

Also AP 4 on all pulse weapons would be a nice touch, not over powered, but fitting the added firepower.

@terranarc +1BS is by far, fluffwise, the worst and by far, mechanically, the laziest fix you can attribute to Tau.

The microburst rockets ended up taking on too much away from the SoB's piano tank; the justification was that as each 'volley' of rockets hit, it penetrated deeper than the last, creating an exponential damage effect which looked like: 1 hit = S6, 2 Hits = 2 S7 hits, 3 Hits = 3 S8 hits.

@jeffar; to toot my own horn, mah Pulse Carbines get +1shots within 9".

chrisrawr wrote:@terranarc +1BS is by far, fluffwise,

Not sure if you know what fluff means. Fluff means lore and tau has far more advanced targeting than the Imperial guard. Fluffwise, a firewarrior has far better marksmanship than a guardsman.

chrisrawr wrote:the worst and by far, mechanically, the laziest fix you can attribute to Tau.

No, not really. Tau deserves BS4 partly for the reason stated above.
But then I was like, I saw your alternative and was absolutely blown away by your awesome suggestion. It was definitely not lazy, worked great mechanically and was perfectly justified by tau lore. What was it again?

chrisrawr wrote:The microburst rockets ended up taking on too much away from the SoB's piano tank; the justification was that as each 'volley' of rockets hit, it penetrated deeper than the last, creating an exponential damage effect which looked like: 1 hit = S6, 2 Hits = 2 S7 hits, 3 Hits = 3 S8 hits.

Oh that sounds fantastic, if we weren't playing Warhammer 40k. A weapon that hits repeatedly? Yeah... most weapons do that. The ones where stacking hits actually matter get this thing called rending where you auto-wound infantry, ignore armor saves and roll an additional d3 for armor penetration. Just so you know.

I like how you point out the targeting systems and training, and then forget the lack of depth perception and lack of reflexive movement tracking that cancels it out. Fluffwise a fire-caste tau doesn't cope as well on the battlefield as a human does for biological and evolutionary reasons - namely, the Tau homeworld had a distinct lack of natural predators during their evolution, and they didn't have to develop the same survival mechanisms that humans did.

Again, it's the laziest fix you can give because it doesn't address their actual problems (lack of dynamic play and versatility, poorly balanced codex options, useless units.)

My alternative is Markerlight saturation and enhancement/expansion of markerlight abilities. My alternative is points cost decreases and minor mobility increases. My alternative is defensive options and pinning saturation. My alternative is a mobile defensive retreat that lures you in and surrounds you with warm, glowing plasmatics.

WHOAH SORRY, let me explain - Warhammer 40K allows you to create rules for weapons that might be abstract or non-simulationist in order to create a more diversified and encompassing game. Each 'hit' you roll isn't ACTUALLY a single hit from an actual weapon - it quantifies that the weaponsfire from this abstract unit using this abstract weapon over an undefined amount of time has potentially damaged your opponent in a virtually significant way.

So each rolled 'hit' from the microburst rockets is intended to be viewed as a volley of molten-copper explosions penetrating deeper than the last, doing more damage because its predecessor has bypassed defenses, so it doesn't have to. Yes, I could've represented this with rending, No I'm not going to because I feel that rending is a poorly balanced mechanic in a D6 system.

chrisrawr wrote:I like how you point out the targeting systems and training, and then forget the lack of depth perception and lack of reflexive movement tracking that cancels it out.

Wow, so you have no idea what a targeting system is supposed to do... ok..

chrisrawr wrote:Fluffwise a fire-caste tau doesn't cope as well on the battlefield as a human does for biological and evolutionary reasons - namely, the Tau homeworld had a distinct lack of natural predators during their evolution, and they didn't have to develop the same survival mechanisms that humans did.

or how evolution works for that matter. But hey, who pays attention in biology classes these days anyway amirite? After all most people don't go to college anyway.

chrisrawr wrote:
Again, it's the laziest fix you can give because it doesn't address their actual problems (lack of dynamic play and versatility, poorly balanced codex options, useless units.)

Or tau codex issues.

Blah blah blah, TL;DR the rest of the nonsense, not that reading your previous suggestion was a waste of time. Lol, +1S -1 AP per hit...
You'll forgive me if I just block you. If I spent time reading everything low-IQ 16 year olds post (no offense), I'd just be wasting too much time.

A targeting system is a tool used to improve one's aim. There are many types of targeting system, but if you're referring to some sort of computer-guided targeting system, I assume you're taking into account electronic warfare and other routines designed to disable it, in order to force us to rely on our inferior senses, yes?

Evolution: When an entity reproduces, its DNA is passed on. DNA that aids an entity in reproduction is passed on and continues aiding future entities. DNA that is detrimental usually gets an entity killed, and that entity does not reproduce, and does not pass on its DNA to future entities. As such, Entities that do not get killed by natural predators are not selected for DNA that aids against getting killed by natural predators, and ergo it is not a reproductive factor. Traits like instinctive motion tracking did not develop in Tau because entities WITHOUT it were not killed, and the biological systems required for it did not have a chance to be selected for in the breeding process. I understand biological evolution just fine, thank you.

You are doing what you accused me of: Saying things without presenting alternatives or backing up your opinion.

It's alright if you feel that Warhammer should be a simulationist game; presenting rules that move the game toward that area can be just as fun as presenting rules in fitting with the setting. Please, present what you feel a targeting system is supposed to represent, how you feel i misrepresented their biology (despite that being the fluff explanation given by Tau Lore), or what you feel the 'actual codex issues' are.

I don't know why you're so hostile, but your tone is one of petty aggression, insultation, and condescension, all of which do not belong here.

I'm sorry chrisrawr, calling +1 bs a "lazy" fix, when obviously it would only be the beginning of fixing the myriad issues in the tau codex, is a rather lame state of mind to be in.

Think about it this way, if you will: the tau are bred to fit their roles - fire caste members to be good fighters, with keen senses and good sight compensated for by targeting sensors etc, which, i might contrast, NO guardsman has an equivalent piece of gear. Much less the great honor of being put into a bigawesome suit for being a cool veteran, fitted with even better sensors and stuff.

Now, why not just extend markerlights to say that you start at bs4 say, and can improve to bs 6. It'd give you a cute way to eke out a few more hits, would be a nice balance to making markerlights cheaper (admit it, bs3->4/5 is a marked difference, wheras 4->5/6 is less so) and slightly more versatile whilst keeping their rarity high like in the current codex so they're not making up a "must-take" slot in a tau army, like ravagers in DE.

Then, you could further say that burst cannons, with 3/4 shots gain rending and/or pinning on a to-hit of 6, which wouldn't be so nice until you realize that with markerlights, suddenly a bunch of burst cannons from stealth suits become wicked, as they ought.

And that doesn't overpower anyone, as only suits of some kind backed by 2+ squads of FW or a squad of PF could do it, which is inter-unit rreliance - you can still kill of the markers to make the suits less scary.

@uberjoras: Why do you feel that Tau need to hit more? BS6 grants, mechanically, almost nothing, and adds an entire roll to the process of shooting for it; remember, 40K is a game where you want to roll lots of dice the fewest number of times possible, in a manner that lets both players feel like they've done something important. This is why the Hit-Wound-Save system is so popular, despite being so backwards.

uh... Suits with 3-shot rending burst cannons at BS4 would be literally the most overpowered units in the game.

Some math on a Twin-Linked Burst Cannon at BS4 and 3 shots for you: 3 Crisis Suits have 9 shots. All 9 Shots hit 7/10 times. 1.5 rends, .5 of which become able to glance AV14. >1 in 2 firings of such a unit can glance av14, on top of whatever else they do.

Now, this is on top of, against meq, an additional 1.5 unsaved wounds, meaning just the burst cannons alone are taking out 3 marines a turn - with plasma rifles as well, you get the other 5, for 8.

3 crisis suits, base, with those two lazy fixes, now dominate everything from geq to landraiders. This is not dynamic gamplay, this is not good army design.

You don't need BS5. You don't need BS6. TL-BS4 is perfectly fine with any S5+ rending weapon to let you dominate the field - which is why ass-back spam, and especially psyback spam, has received so much hatred and complaints - no one unit should be a direct counter to everything you table.

Again, from a mechanical and fluff standpoint, don't you feel it would be better to represent the tau's weaponry through the effect of their hits, rather than the saturation of them? Terra mentioned their targeting systems - Markerlights ARE their targeting systems; they're the only reliable way we've found mention in fluff that Tau can shoot with any devastating accuracy. if you want your shots to hit, you do it with markerlights. Without markerlights, you have the points to spend on MORE and BETTER weapons, while WITH markerlights, you instead find a balance between PRECISION and BATTLEFIELD EFFECTS. By introducing MORE WAYS TO DO THINGS and then balancing all of those ways against each other, and against options in other armies, what you get is PLAYER CHOICE. You CAN have the super-accurate tau army. You CAN have the army that has more big, scary guns than anyone else. You CAN have a big bag of dice to roll every shooting phase. And you can switch between or mix and match these options, all on a base that fulfills the Tau's battlefield ideology of a mobile, dynamic defense that adapts and retreats rather than engages and digs in.

Go beyond FW and PF inter-unit reliance. Build a body, with pathfinders as your eyes, firewarriors as your hands, kroot and vespid your shield and spear, powerful hammerhead your clarion call, and your mind and spine built from the iridium of broadside and crisis suit, diamond-strong and unbreakable. Flex the might in your arm and know that you are T'au, and the Greater Good is strong within you; No amount of training or breeding can prepare you for war - the mightiest Space Marines and the most depraved Dark Eldar all started off fearful and untested, as did the Commanders who now lead you to battle; Your aim may waver and your will may falter, but your cadre will be there if you persevere; live, and fire, and fire again - no enemies can stand against the might in your guns or the fire in your hearts; aim unerring is not as important as hope unfaltering.

Burst cannons a threat to landraiders with 1d6 + 1d3 for pen.

Lolwut?