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I am just trying to figure out if it is ever worth taking lychguard over wraiths.

for arguments sake lets say all the wraiths have whip coils and all the lychguard have shields to even out their points.

lychguard pros:
durable, power weapons, can add cyteks amd can take transport.

cons:
slow, expensive, low damage output and need help to really be at their best.

Wraiths are kinda a go to thing so I am not going to go over them. I was thinking of trying lychguard like this.
7 lychguard
2 chronometrion
1 overlord with orb,mss, war scythe and weave.

What do you guys think would it be better to just always go with wraiths and put the extra points else where or could a lychguard unit like that work as an on par alternative?

Orange or grapefruit, either will make a fine fruit salad.

Problem you have present me with is the lack of background info as to the rest of your army, now assuming you are following the current trend of necron lists I will simply say go with wraiths, run forward and slaughter. On a straight and even point for point argument I will concede that wraiths are the better offensive option.

Now that I said that I dont like wraiths in my army but only because I prefer destroyers as my fast choices.

Way i see it.

1) Lychguard can be bettered into something very formidable by adding royal court members - and overlord. In fact, they will probably exel at that role.
2) Lychguard has better resistance against low strength shooting and attacks (high T) - and is more durable against high strength attacks (1 wound). It has better time hiding in the terrain due to having smaller models.
3) They do have different slots.

Way i see it, lychguard is something of a counter-charge, defensive unit; it has not much choice about that due to movement options it has. I am toying with the idea of throwing lychguard out of monolith portal (and running forward, making a defensive wall against meltas) - or deepstriking them (with cryptek, Obyron or Night Scythe - this variant has them disembarking after the deepstrike). In fact, i am very tempted to somehow make them wotk with warscythes, since i have 10 Pariah models lying around...

Hey, let's run the numbers! How about we make a comparsion with:
1) boyz (as far as i remember, wraith die to boyz mob regardless of who get the charge)
2) purifiers
3) BA assault marines (the power weapons can really make the differenca against FNP)
4) something else

We can go a step further and throw an overlord into mix, even. Sticking him in lychguard seems like a natural thing to do.

Doesn't lychguard Reanimate while Wraith don't? 4+ shield and then 4+ Reanimation is really really good.

I think they make a fine deterrent unit as you mass up your army.

I intentionally left the background of my army ambiguous. I understand there is a few situations where lynchguard have the advantage. The question is really does the advantage they have vs a TAC list , I realize this to varies on who and what you are facing, make up for what you would have gotten with wraiths or could wraiths do a passable job in the lychguards specialty area while still excelling in there own.

@ leohart : Yah luchguard comeback on a 4+ , but then you have to add in the cost for an orb and wraiths have two wounds so you can kinda count that as passing the 1st RP for free

@Survivor19: After S6 there is not difference between the T of the two and the wraiths 3++ is better then the lychguards 4++ at low ap. Lychguard may be smaller but wraiths are faster and ignore terrain so they can take advantage of cover id almost say better and have to less often with the better save, wound allocation also increases their durability

Vs boys lychguard will probably do worse then wraiths.

Vs power armor the power weapon give then an edge , but wraiths have more attacks at higher S and rending.

Vs FNP on T4 the edge goes to lychguard.

Is that slight edge in those situations make it worth taking lychguard over wraiths ? I mean picking the best of what the lychguard do they edge past wraiths.

I want to like them I was just hoping for a situation where lychguard thrive and wraiths would not come in just behind.

After S6 there is not difference between the T of the two and the wraiths 3++ is better then the lychguards 4++ at low ap

Not entirely correct.
There is an issue of instant death.

you have to add in the cost for an orb

Resurection Orb on lychguard is as close to textbook case of "making its points back" as it can get.
Way i see it, lychguard enchance perfomance of foot overlord. Note, that it means for some reason he is not in the pimp ride. Out of my head, that could be Nemesor - or maybe Traveller, who is arguably better off deepstriking into the parking lot with bodyguards to ruin the day of some poor Manticore then riding on barge.
About boyz, we will just have to run the numbers. I do believe that on charge lychguard will win through attrition eventually due to T5 vs S3

If LG get the charge on boys (5 LG versus 30 boys, assuming slugga/choppa) the LG kill 8 to 9 after no retreat and the LG lose half a model after RP. Also assuming all 30 boys get in the mix.

In terms of resiliency:

Assuming a BS of 4 and Res Orb LG it takes...
27 Bolter shots to kill a LG.
18 Bolter shots to kill a Wraith.

~7 S8+ AP 3- to kill a LG.
~5 S8+ AP 3- to kill a Wraith.

Just to give both ends of the spectrum, I'm pretty sure there are some exceptions, but LG are generally more resilient against most weapon platforms.

Pretty much it is good to bring another form of CC when you bring wraiths, such as scarabs / pretorians / lychguard. My favorite thing to do with my LG is to plop them where my enemy has to deal with them, especially with a group or two of wraiths and maybe a group of scarabs all in range of their squishy things.

The Issue with Lychguard is that's there's no real cost efficient way to deliver them into combat.

Night Scythes: Bad, real bad
Monoliths: Slightly less bad, but still bad
Veil: Expensive, not to mentioned your all bunched up in front of the entire enemy army as the most dangerous thing on the board

or walk them up the board, forever.

If you don't shoot, aren't you allowed to run after a deep strike? Helps with bunching up, so long as you don't roll too low.

Fafnir13 wrote:If you don't shoot, aren't you allowed to run after a deep strike? Helps with bunching up, so long as you don't roll too low.

Yes. I never understand why people throw that out so much. With an average roll of 3.5" you should be able to spread out to your normal max coherency.

Griever wrote:The Issue with Lychguard is that's there's no real cost efficient way to deliver them into combat.
Veil: Expensive, not to mentioned your all bunched up in front of the entire enemy army as the most dangerous thing on the board
or walk them up the board, forever.

I haven't 'math-hammered' it, but if sword 'n' boards are close enough they can reflect some bullets. Depending on the number and type of shots, this might cause someone to think twice. Plus, it further complicates an opponent's target selection.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Fafnir13 wrote:If you don't shoot, aren't you allowed to run after a deep strike? Helps with bunching up, so long as you don't roll too low.

Yes. I never understand why people throw that out so much. With an average roll of 3.5" you should be able to spread out to your normal max coherency.

Even if you roll a 1, that's all you need since the small blast is only 1.5".

I have been using two units of lychguard each with a chronometron and a veiltek... they have been incredible. Not the most efficient points spent, but these two units have been unbelievable.

I recently had a dreadnought drop in my face, shoot heavy flamer/meltagun/and two hunter killer missile at my unit. After all was said and done there were zero dead lychguard and a weaponless, immobilized dreadnought. It was amazing. reflected all three shots with my shield and they all penetrated the dread. haha

I have Anrakyr in one unit to help mitigate mech. They are weak against dreadnoughts as a whole though. the str 5 power weapons are worthless against that 13 AV. Thinking about trying to screw with my points to get a Lord in there for the Warscythe.

A Lord's a perfect match for a unit of Lychguard. Better than an Overlord (or any SC) IMO, mainly because the Lord can't be singled out in CC. That Res Orb keeps Res-ing, Warscythe keeps chopping, and Scarabs keep Shackling with no end in sight... I wouldn't take Lychguard without one.

DexKivuli wrote:

Griever wrote:The Issue with Lychguard is that's there's no real cost efficient way to deliver them into combat.
Veil: Expensive, not to mentioned your all bunched up in front of the entire enemy army as the most dangerous thing on the board
or walk them up the board, forever.

I haven't 'math-hammered' it, but if sword 'n' boards are close enough they can reflect some bullets. Depending on the number and type of shots, this might cause someone to think twice. Plus, it further complicates an opponent's target selection.

The shots only reflect to a unit within 6". You just have to shoot them from a fraction past 6" and they get no reflect, and only ap3 or less shots can be reflected.

The entire reflect ability on lychguard is meh

@ ShadarLogoth are you running these number with the LG having sword and board on the defense and war scythe on the attack?

also:
30 boys > 90 attacks >45 hits> 14.85 wounds>4,9 unsaved>2,45 get back up. that's 2.5 dead models not .5

if the LG have S&B they do about 5 wounds. so no fearless saves. it would be a tie combat.

wraiths would kill 9 and lose 7 wounds ( that might only be two models. If you factor in the price of the orb and add another wraith by the2- 3rd combat they could have the orks whipped and win. Giving the LG the charge might be a little optimistic too.

deviant cadaver wrote:@ ShadarLogoth are you running these number with the LG having sword and board on the defense and war scythe on the attack?

also:
30 boys > 90 attacks >45 hits> 14.85 wounds>4,9 unsaved>2,45 get back up. that's 2.5 dead models not .5

if the LG have S&B they do about 5 wounds. so no fearless saves. it would be a tie combat.

wraiths would kill 9 and lose 7 wounds ( that might only be two models. If you factor in the price of the orb and add another wraith by the2- 3rd combat they could have the orks whipped and win. Giving the LG the charge might be a little optimistic too.

I did it with sword and board, not that the extra defense helps them at all, and Orcs getting charged by LG wound on 6's, not 5+. So its 90(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= 2.5 , 1.25 dead after the rez orb, some how we were both off. Still, the LG win 5 to 2.5, more fearless wounds, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Your Wraith's are taking less casualties then you calculated as well though (5, not 7), and valid point on the res orb price. Still, Wraiths are suffering quite a bit more casualties for a minimal increase in offensive output. Idealistically I would want my LG tying up the boys while my Wraiths jumped around for some Lootas or nobs (Assuming I had both to work with).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to elaborate a bit, assuming 6 Wraiths, we are killing 9, losing 5, killing another 3 or 4 due to fearless wounds, we'll round up and call it a total of 13. So we lost about 100 points worth of wraith wounds and killed about 78 points worth of Orcs. The LG again win 5 to 2.5, so 2 to 3 dead Orcs to fearless wounds, we'll round up again, for a total of 8. So, after RP we lose about 55ish (on average) points of LG and kill about 48 points. Looking at it this way the discrepancy favors the LG, however this certainly isn't to say the Wraiths are woefully inadequate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Giving the LG the charge might be a little optimistic too.

Perhaps. My experience with Boys is you can pretty safely hang out in cover and let them bring the fight to you (as army versus army they simply can't afford to try to stand off and duke it out with bullets). This generally either results in you getting the charge or them assaulting you in cover, with the latter not being as favorable for the LG but still a fight they should win.

Thanks ShadarLogoth for catching that and running the math. I still can't forgive you for what you did to Mat Cauthon, but that is for another time.

This is kinda a rules question but you do RP after no retreat correct?

It seems LG have a use as a shield vs str 3-4.

deviant cadaver wrote:Thanks ShadarLogoth for catching that and running the math. I still can't forgive you for what you did to Mat Cauthon, but that is for another time.

This is kinda a rules question but you do RP after no retreat correct?

It seems LG have a use as a shield vs str 3-4.

Yes no retreat is before RP (man it would be awesome if that weren't the case, however I have a feeling combat resolution is fixing to get tweaked in two weeks regardless).

Yeah the overall resiliency inherent in the LG seems to make them good at dealing with anything you would rather not get your Scarabs/Wraiths bogged down with, I haven't run LG much personally though so this is largely theoretical.

Lastly, bitch took my dagger, such transgressions shall not go unpunished . Nice catch though, you're the first to vocally (textually?) identify the source of my handle 6 more months and the Wheel spins its last weave (assuming the world doesn't literally end first ), can't wait.

Actually, come to think of it, once 6th ed. drops and Preferred Enemy affects shooting, it may be a case of,
"For 40-ish points per model, do you want Aggressive combat (Wraiths), Defensive combat (Lychguard), or Dedicated anti-MEQ dakka (Destroyers)?"