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http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/14/world/meast/egypt-ruling/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I guess you could at least say it's not boring over there.

No one should be surprised by this. The people like the Islamists, and the military doesn't. The military has more guns, and tacit US support, so the military can do what it wants.

They should just let the Brotherhood have it for a while. They'll make a hash of it, then the people will actually want to go back to "secular" Egypt.

I think it's nice of them to start making exciting news again!

Lets hope this starts a trend, "Down with the purple stained fingers, up with the bloodstained hands!"

Seriously though...

Bummer.

Democracy over there means Islamic extremism, there are enough people not to want that outside, so it looks like no democracy.

deathholydeath wrote:They should just let the Brotherhood have it for a while. They'll make a hash of it, then the people will actually want to go back to "secular" Egypt.

Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

Frazzled wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:They should just let the Brotherhood have it for a while. They'll make a hash of it, then the people will actually want to go back to "secular" Egypt.

Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

This is the first time ever I have agreed with Frazzled.

Don't know If I should be worried or happy.

You should be terrified. However, there is a cure. Call 335-6464. Wiener Dogs are standing by.

You can't encourage people to introduce democracy then criticise them for electing the 'wrong' people. If there was ever a definition of hypocrisy, then this is it.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:You can't encourage people to introduce democracy then criticise them for electing the 'wrong' people. If there was ever a definition of hypocrisy, then this is it.

Sure we can. We make fun of each other, why should we hold back on them?

Frazzled wrote:
Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

Depends on which Iranians and Afghans you're talking to.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

Depends on which Iranians and Afghans you're talking to.

Heh, this guy! *points at dogma*

I find it very curious how often we've been agreeing lately.



I have mixed feelings about the Egypt situation. I'm disappointed that this is happening the way it is, but on some level I also understand it, even if I don't agree with it. My overall position on the matter though is that I hope for the best for the Egyptian people. They deserve better than what they're getting.

At the same time, the Egyptian people are going to have to figure out some way to work with the military. I don't know what a solution that would please everyone (including neighboring countries) would look like though. Calling the situation complex doesn't really say it.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

Depends on which Iranians and Afghans you're talking to.

Well thats everywhere isn't it. Worked great for certain people. Worked less well for the women and homosexuals they stoned to death or shot in a soccer stadium.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Of course. That worked so well for Iran and Afghanistan.

Depends on which Iranians and Afghans you're talking to.

Well thats everywhere isn't it. Worked great for certain people. Worked less well for the women and homosexuals they stoned to death or shot in a soccer stadium.

Is it weird if I agree with dogma and Frazzled at the same time? Dakka OT seems to have been becoming slightly more reasonable lately, somehow. Or maybe I've just gotten better at picking threads to read.


I was curious to see how an Egyptian government with a large number of members from the Islamic Brotherhood would be. I'm not sure it would be like Iran, and I'd be willing to bet it definitely wouldn't be like Afghanistan, but it would be interesting. Assuming they didn't just try to take over like the military, it might not have been horrible. I'm not saying it would have necessarily been good either, but at least it would have been what Egypt chose for itself.

You are not yet ready for democracy...

Be afraid Hordini, be very afraid. Your mind is a dichotomy wrapped in an argument!

Hordini wrote:I'm not saying it would have necessarily been good either, but at least it would have been what Egypt chose for itself.

Egypt chose this for itself as much as any nation chooses anything for itself. Egypt isn't just the plebes.

dogma wrote:

Hordini wrote:I'm not saying it would have necessarily been good either, but at least it would have been what Egypt chose for itself.

Egypt chose this for itself as much as any nation chooses anything for itself. Egypt isn't just the plebes.

I get that Egypt isn't just the plebes, but a lot of regular people were fighting to get some form of democracy and they seemed to have achieved that, and now that the military is trying to mess with that it does seem very unfortunate, at least in principle (yay democracy and all that).

That said, and I often spoke about this while I was in Egypt, the people would never have even gotten this far if it wasn't for the military. The fact that the military more or less sided with the people in order to oust Mubarak is what made any sort of elections or democracy possible in the first place. I knew a lot of people who enjoyed the feel-good idea of "the people" ousting Mubarak, but the truth is, if the military hadn't gone against Mubarak he'd still be in power and we might have a situation similar to Libya or Syria going on in Egypt.

It's also important to keep in mind that the army as an institution is/was generally pretty well respected in Egypt, and a lot of people have friends/relatives/acquaintances in the army and the police. I'm not saying that the people should just bend over and give the military everything they want, but I do think some kind of compromise ought to be attempted. The military jumping in to take power every time there's some political hiccup makes that a bit difficult though, but to be honest, at this point the military might be the only institution that's actually competent enough to run the country, although I'm hoping that will change if an elected government ever actually gets a chance to govern.

Hordini wrote:
I get that Egypt isn't just the plebes, but a lot of regular people were fighting to get some form of democracy and they seemed to have achieved that, and now that the military is trying to mess with that it does seem very unfortunate, at least in principle (yay democracy and all that).

Here's a thing I say a lot: the Egyptian democracy advocates achieved nothing. And I won't lie, I didn't see this at the time either, but this picture illustrates things well.



Those are tanks, tanks not running over people. Running over people with tanks would scar most, but the point is that the Army had power, and chose to not use it. It gave Mubarak up for the "slaughter", and bode its time. This was smart, and not something I expected, I like that I can still be surprised.

Hordini wrote:
That said, and I often spoke about this while I was in Egypt, the people would never have even gotten this far if it wasn't for the military.

Its very Brazilian in that way, but their bikinis are not as nice.

Hordini wrote:
It's also important to keep in mind that the army as an institution is/was generally pretty well respected in Egypt, and a lot of people have friends/relatives/acquaintances in the army and the police. I'm not saying that the people should just bend over and give the military everything they want, but I do think some kind of compromise ought to be attempted. The military jumping in to take power every time there's some political hiccup makes that a bit difficult though, but to be honest, at this point the military might be the only institution that's actually competent enough to run the country, although I'm hoping that will change if an elected government ever actually gets a chance to govern.

Also Brazilian, and Latin American in general; also Turkish. But yeah, a well integrated Army is an asset to stability, its why the Chinese sent divisions from the West, why North Korea is stable, and why some worry about our Army.

dogma wrote:

Hordini wrote:I get that Egypt isn't just the plebes, but a lot of regular people were fighting to get some form of democracy and they seemed to have achieved that, and now that the military is trying to mess with that it does seem very unfortunate, at least in principle (yay democracy and all that).

Here's a thing I say a lot: the Egyptian democracy advocates achieved nothing. And I won't lie, I didn't see this at the time either, but this picture illustrates things well.



Those are tanks, tanks not running over people. Running over people with tanks would scar most, but the point is that the Army had power, and chose to not use it. It gave Mubarak up for the "slaughter", and bode its time. This was smart, and not something I expected, I like that I can still be surprised.

Hordini wrote:
That said, and I often spoke about this while I was in Egypt, the people would never have even gotten this far if it wasn't for the military.

Its very Brazilian in that way, but their bikinis are not as nice.

Hordini wrote:
It's also important to keep in mind that the army as an institution is/was generally pretty well respected in Egypt, and a lot of people have friends/relatives/acquaintances in the army and the police. I'm not saying that the people should just bend over and give the military everything they want, but I do think some kind of compromise ought to be attempted. The military jumping in to take power every time there's some political hiccup makes that a bit difficult though, but to be honest, at this point the military might be the only institution that's actually competent enough to run the country, although I'm hoping that will change if an elected government ever actually gets a chance to govern.

Also Brazilian, and Latin American in general; also Turkish. But yeah, a well integrated Army is an asset to stability, its why the Chinese sent divisions from the West, why North Korea is stable, and why some worry about our Army.

Hordini wrote:
That picture illustrates the situation pretty well dogma, and is consistent with my experience there last August and September.

Points to you, I had a trip planned but the Spring cancelled it. I was more upset that I didn't get to go, post revolution, weird as that sounds.

Hordini wrote:Of course, it didn't hurt that a lot of people were more focused on Israel recently killing a few Egyptian soldiers on the border, so there were some violent protests and fatal confrontations with police at the Israeli embassy around the same time.

When the US buys your guns, you support the US.

I doubt US involvement this time. They aren't threatening the Suez Canal are they?

dogma wrote:

Hordini wrote:
That picture illustrates the situation pretty well dogma, and is consistent with my experience there last August and September.

Points to you, I had a trip planned but the Spring cancelled it. I was more upset that I didn't get to go, post revolution, weird as that sounds.

A lot of people probably think I'm crazy for this, but I don't think it's weird at all. The revolution made me want to go more actually, although I'm sure me having been there before (pre-revolution) and knowing some people there made the decision easier. Cairo is a big city, and although there are no guarantees and all kinds of bad stuff could happen, etc. etc., I was (and am) pretty confident I could find a safe spot to lie low if I needed to. The gak hitting the fan plan was to get to the American embassy.

Cairo in general is actually what I would consider a very safe city. By far the biggest danger you'd be in would be getting hit by a car crossing the street.

Of course, I didn't know any of this the first time I went there, which is why the decision to go back was a lot easier for me.


If you get a chance to go again dogma, definitely go. Egypt is one of the most interesting countries I've ever been to, and I would like to go back again.

Hordini wrote:
Cairo in general is actually what I would consider a very safe city.

Agreed. I've run for my life more than I deserve to have gotten away with, but never in Egypt; granted I've only been once.

Things I've learned: never fail to carry BRL when taking a cab in Brazil, never dance with a woman in a club in Turkey unless you speak Turkish, and never ever tell a drunk Frenchman you're really British.

Egypt is beautiful though, the mystique, desert, and Nile combine well.

dogma wrote:

Hordini wrote:
Cairo in general is actually what I would consider a very safe city.

Agreed. I've run for my life more than I deserve to have gotten away with, but never in Egypt; granted I've only been once.

Things I've learned: never fail to carry BRL when taking a cab in Brazil, never dance with a woman in a club in Turkey unless you speak Turkish, and never ever tell a drunk Frenchman you're really British.

Egypt is beautiful though, the mystique, desert, and Nile combine well.

Oh, so you have been to Egypt. You didn't need me to tell you all that then.

I've been lucky so far in that I haven't really had any major trouble in other countries (knock on wood). I've had a few close calls though. I found out Turkish police don't necessarily knock first before entering. That was a pretty interesting cultural experience.

Hordini wrote:
Oh, so you have been to Egypt. You didn't need me to tell you all that then.

Always nice to have a reminder.