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if a doom siren wounds a plague marine does the plaugue marine get a feel no pain roll and for those that don't know doom sirens are Str-5 AP-3 i've been going through the FAQ but I cannot find anything on this i had a friendly game and this happened and it confused me, do to my understanding that if you don't get a save in the first place then you cannot go to step two (feel no pain roll).

if you have a reply could you please back it up with a FAQ

you do get to attempt a feel no pain roll against it.

The restriction on Feel No Pain with regards to AP only says you can't make the save against weapons against which no armour save can ever be taken, this means to prevent feel no pain, it has to either say no armour saves can be taken against it (like a power weapon for example) or be AP 1 or 2 (since no armour save is good enough to be taken against AP 1 or 2 weapons).

Because a 2+ save can be taken against an AP3 weapon, it is not an attack against which no armour saves can ever be taken, and thus, it does not prevent FNP.

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:if a doom siren wounds a plague marine does the plaugue marine get a feel no pain roll and for those that don't know doom sirens are Str-5 AP-3 i've been going through the FAQ but I cannot find anything on this i had a friendly game and this happened and it confused me, do to my understanding that if you don't get a save in the first place then you cannot go to step two (feel no pain roll).

if you have a reply could you please back it up with a FAQ

No FAQ needed.

Three things prevent FnP;

1. The wound causes Instant Death

2. The wound is caused by an AP1 or AP2 weapon

3. The wound is caused by a weapon that NEVER EVER allows an armour save.


1. addresses the Strength of the weapon, 2. Addresses the AP of the weapon and 3. addresses any special rules that the weapon posses.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that exception 3 has anything to do with the weapons AP....that is the "job" of exception 2.
There is a big difference between not getting an armour save in this particular situation (a model with a 3+ armour save getting hit by an AP 3 weapon)), and not getting an armour save EVER (say, a Power Weapon).


....

Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

Not to sound like a jerk, but what part of "EVER" are you not getting?

To wheel out the extreme example. Plaguebearers. PBs have FNP, they also have "-" for an armour save. Using your logic PBs would never ever ever get to use their FNP.

Someone I knew tried to argue this :/ Then he claimed because it could take an invun it allowed it... I talked him through the rule and he changed his mind

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

Did you misunderstand the question or the FnP rule?

Grimtuff wrote:

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

Not to sound like a jerk, but what part of "EVER" are you not getting?

To wheel out the extreme example. Plaguebearers. PBs have FNP, they also have "-" for an armour save. Using your logic PBs would never ever ever get to use their FNP.

not trying to fight this much but of you get the save invol save its not negated by ap 3

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

Not to sound like a jerk, but what part of "EVER" are you not getting?

To wheel out the extreme example. Plaguebearers. PBs have FNP, they also have "-" for an armour save. Using your logic PBs would never ever ever get to use their FNP.

not trying to fight this much but of you get the save invol save its not negated by ap 3

What does that "sentence" even mean?

Steelmage99 wrote:

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

Not to sound like a jerk, but what part of "EVER" are you not getting?

To wheel out the extreme example. Plaguebearers. PBs have FNP, they also have "-" for an armour save. Using your logic PBs would never ever ever get to use their FNP.

not trying to fight this much but of you get the save invol save its not negated by ap 3

What does that "sentence" even mean?

I think it appears to say if a unit has an inv. save then FNP is not negated. I think.

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Plague marines have a 3+ save and ap 3 negates that save correct

EVER. EVER. FNP says if you cannot EVER take a save you dont get FNP

To show you the error in your thinking PB dont have an armour save, just an inv - so that means you dont get FNP ever, right? Wrong.

PB have an invulnerable save and ap-3 doesn't negate invulnerable saves so by my logic you would get feel no pain since its roll out the would if you can then reroll failed save (fnp)

is there an FAQ anywhere on dakka or GW that actaully clarefies this because so far all i see is ap-3 versus armour 3 means hell roll out you get an armour save

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:PB have an invulnerable save and ap-3 doesn't negate invulnerable saves so by my logic you would get feel no pain since its roll out the would if you can then reroll failed save (fnp)

Except your logic is not based in the rules, which do not mention Invulnerable saves at all. The rules state if you *never* get an armour save against an attack then you dont get FNP. Terminators get a save against AP3 so AP3, by itself, does not negate FNP

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:is there an FAQ anywhere on dakka or GW that actaully clarefies this because so far all i see is ap-3 versus armour 3 means hell roll out you get an armour save

No, no FAQ, because the rules on this are clear. If there is NO way to get an armour save against the attack, or it causes Instant Death, then you dont get FNP. AP3 DOES allow some armour saves, and so by itself does not negate FNP.

Maybe this might help.

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:PB have an invulnerable save and ap-3 doesn't negate invulnerable saves so by my logic you would get feel no pain since its roll out the would if you can then reroll failed save (fnp)

is there an FAQ anywhere on dakka or GW that actaully clarefies this because so far all i see is ap-3 versus armour 3 means hell roll out you get an armour save

Again

EVER EVER EVER! Take for example a Missile launcher. It is AP3. Mr Terminator still get his save against it but is denied FNP (if he has it) as it has a high enough S to cause Instant Death. The same ML when fired at a unit of TWC will not negate their totally-made-up-for-the-purposes-of-this-example FNP due to not being high enough S to cause ID, AP1 or 2 and as even though their amour save is disallowed other units in the game can still take their saves. The key word is EVER. This is for things like Power Weapons, Fists, Hell, even look in your own codex at Breath of Chaos.

Okay, since a terminator gets a save, then a completely different unrelated unit (plague marines) gets a feel no pain with out any question sorry i had such a hard time understanding that plague marines shrug off ap 3 cause it doesn't matter.

Not without any queston, as you still verify that the attack doesnt cause instant death.

It doesnt matter because the rules say it doesnt matter.

And it still kills plague marines three times as easily than it would if it wasn't AP3. If it was AP4 they'd get a 3+ armor save AND FNP. 1/6 of such wounded models wound die. Since it ignores their armor all they get is FNP, so 1/2 of wounded models die.

blap-pa-be-blap wrote:Okay, since a terminator gets a save, then a completely different unrelated unit (plague marines) gets a feel no pain with out any question sorry i had such a hard time understanding that plague marines shrug off ap 3 cause it doesn't matter.

They aren't "shrugging it off", and yes it does matter. They do not get to roll their armor save, but are still allowed to roll FNP.