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Thinking of a list based around some GK termies and a Librarian w termie armour, not sure about the best way to use them.
For a start, how to get them into CC early as possible. Am I better off deep striking with help from other units, soaking up a round of fire then charging? Or loading up in a Raider. That would be more effective, but very expensive. Or am I best off footslogging? With pysbolt ammo and pyscannon they could be pretty dakka, but also pretty expensive...and very vulnerable.
Regarding equipment...is there any reason not to give them force halberds? 4++ in CC is nice, but striking at I6 S6 (assuming I can get two hammerhands off) would mean there's not much left to strike back after, so I shouldn't have to take those saves anyway...and they're still 2+ let's remember.
The rest of the army I'm thinking a shed load of Purifiers with Pyscannons and some dreads with pyscannons.

From what i have read Paladins are the way to go....although you might not make many friends.

Paladins aren't troops and I don't want Draigo.

Terminators are units that I love, so I have a lot of experience playing termie heavy armies.

They way you play termies really depends on their capabilities. In the case of GK termies, while they shoot OK, their shooting is weak compared to other dedicated GK shooting options. However, they are too expensive as dedicated combat units, as again other GK units do that better. Thus you must leverage both shooting and combat to make good use of them.

This, in my opinion, precludes the use of dedicated transport options, as you lose the shooting while embarked. It also precludes the use of any heavy weapon other than the psycannon, as you are not maximizing your mobile shooting otherwise.

So this leaves footslogging and teleporting. Teleporting is helped by the several options like homers and servoskulls, as well as summoning from the libby you also plan on running. Staying flexible, while still having a plan for the objectives at the very start of the game is critical, as your movement options need to be planned due to the slower foot speed.

Compare Termies with normal Grey Knights, double pt cost, same gun, and same cc weaponry, but dreadnought armor and 2 (instead of 1) attacks.
For this, I find that GKSS have the better value since they can also be transported by a Rhino or Razorback.
As said above, if you want Termies take Paladins.

So how do I use Pallies w/Librarian then? Like normal termies but footslogging with pyscannons/pysbolts?

Testify wrote:So how do I use Pallies w/Librarian then? Like normal termies but footslogging with pyscannons/pysbolts?

I'm pretty sure if you tried to use psybolts with psycannons people would throw their codexes at your head. Use paladins like supernobz, allocate them out and revel in a unit with FNP, a 2+ save, and two wounds that needs 10 wounds for anyone to start dying in a full sized squad. Be prepared for people to hate you though.

Yeah, i wanted to use termies in my GK army without running a netlist dick unit. Is it not possible to do that with GK?

Testify wrote:Yeah, i wanted to use termies in my GK army without running a netlist dick unit. Is it not possible to do that with GK?

The thing is, if you don't allocate them out they're going to do little but disappoint you due to their extortionate price tag.

Kain wrote:

Testify wrote:Yeah, i wanted to use termies in my GK army without running a netlist dick unit. Is it not possible to do that with GK?

The thing is, if you don't allocate them out they're going to do little but disappoint you due to their extortionate price tag.

So 10 paladins with apocathory, 4 Pyscannons, equal split of force halberds, deamon hammers and force swords, and a warding stave? That's about 725 points.
Oh and is the Brotherhood Banner worth it? 25 points for 9 extra attacks seems pretty sweet.

Testify wrote:

Kain wrote:

Testify wrote:Yeah, i wanted to use termies in my GK army without running a netlist dick unit. Is it not possible to do that with GK?

The thing is, if you don't allocate them out they're going to do little but disappoint you due to their extortionate price tag.

So 10 paladins with apocathory, 4 Pyscannons, equal split of force halberds, deamon hammers and force swords, and a warding stave? That's about 725 points.
Oh and is the Brotherhood Banner worth it? 25 points for 9 extra attacks seems pretty sweet.

Yeah, its a beat stick. Add Draigo and let him soak up single lascannon or melta shots. This will make this unit even more resilient.
Then build the army around this unit, like two GKSS units in Rhinos, some Psyfleman Dreads or even Dreadknights.

Typically i run one squad of five with halbreds and pyscannon with my libby and they fair relatively well. Put them in a Raven or Land Raider, get them where needed, and they can either A) solve an irritating problem (enemy unit) or B) can be a bullet sponge.

i love my termies with my termie libby.

Paladins are ok. I find them angering, mainly because you have very few and they get shot more then anything on the board, and typically leave you in a tricky spot when fighting hordes, not to mention they usually never survive long enough to do much, at least for me.

When i first started everyone i talked to about gk told me over and over to keep GK cheap and simple, so thats what i do, It allows me to have more models on the board, and also allows me to support other units if needed, but of course this always varies between the points your playing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:Yeah, i wanted to use termies in my GK army without running a netlist dick unit. Is it not possible to do that with GK?

Its always possible you just need to look at units that can support them, and get them either across the board or position them in places needed.

Such as a libby and a raven / LR you may want to look into razor spam with 4, and a GKSS in each, along with either dual raiders or dual ravens.

Should give you enough to field one maybe two squads of 5 GK termies. (non pally).

wuestenfux wrote:Compare Termies with normal Grey Knights, double pt cost, same gun, and same cc weaponry, but dreadnought armor and 2 (instead of 1) attacks.
For this, I find that GKSS have the better value since they can also be transported by a Rhino or Razorback.
As said above, if you want Termies take Paladins.

but you miss the fact that the swords special rule actually effects them, and the halberds and hammers are free. and the fact they have relentless for their psycannons so I much prefer termies!

I usually run them:

terminators - 5 man, justi with sword, 1x sword, 2x halberds, 1x hammer, 1x psycannon

or

terminators - 10 man, justi with sword, 3x swords, 5x halberds, 2x hammer, 2x psycannon (or drop a halberd for banner, and maybe add psyammo)

Building a key beatstick unit that soaks a bunch of points is a poor thing to try and do. You end up with 2 armies that don't work well together, both of which are too small.

Also, the paladin deathsquad is not actually a good unit or list, its on par with nob biker lists of old. Great at killing scrubs, terrible at winning against good opposition.

If you want termies in your list, then build a GK footslogging list with multiple units of termies. 20 termy armor guy as a core is scary hard to kill, and gives you dispersed firepower that can be in multiple places at once.

notabot187 wrote:Building a key beatstick unit that soaks a bunch of points is a poor thing to try and do. You end up with 2 armies that don't work well together, both of which are too small.

Also, the paladin deathsquad is not actually a good unit or list, its on par with nob biker lists of old. Great at killing scrubs, terrible at winning against good opposition.

If you want termies in your list, then build a GK footslogging list with multiple units of termies. 20 termy armor guy as a core is scary hard to kill, and gives you dispersed firepower that can be in multiple places at once.

Totally agree with this, and with wound allocation rumoured to be changing in 6th edition, thatg would I guess spell the end to all draigowing lists

Not, again I have to disagree about paladins. They are a fantastic unit with a lot going for them, so long as your list supports them correctly. Because of their ease to collect, perhaps you saw a lot of new players collecting them and losing, coloring your perception?

DevianID wrote:Not, again I have to disagree about paladins. They are a fantastic unit with a lot going for them, so long as your list supports them correctly. Because of their ease to collect, perhaps you saw a lot of new players collecting them and losing, coloring your perception?

No, I've played with them myself, won quite a few games with them, and stomped people who are quite good (with me playing vanilla marines) when they ran them.

I remember when nob bikers were the big thing, just as expensive, just as hard to kill, and just as lethal. They were also way faster, could multi assault, and could kill anything. Yet they are still considered today to be a gimmick army easily countered by a good list played well.

I've yet to lose to "draigowing", and I've yet to lose to a list that had more than a 5 man paladin unit (and no apothecary). Yet I have lost to vanilla GKs, purifier spam, and henchmen lists.

I can imagine a decent enough list at 2250+ that has 10 cheap paladins working, cheap meaning no upgrades other than 4x cannons. But at anything lower they are too expensive and cause the rest of the list to suffer. Draigo is pretty expensive, I would just take a regular grandmaster with cannon and call it a day. If you need the paladins to score the paladin can make it happen.

Played vanilla termies today and they did brilliantly. I don't understand the hate. 24 I6 S7 PW attacks on the charge That's a dead MEQ squad right there.
Even if charged, they will wipe out 90% of an MEQ squad before they take wounds.

Testify wrote:Played vanilla termies today and they did brilliantly. I don't understand the hate. 24 I6 S7 PW attacks on the charge That's a dead MEQ squad right there.
Even if charged, they will wipe out 90% of an MEQ squad before they take wounds.

Because a Meq squad in CC is nothing to write home about?

Because 10 GKT is much more expensive than 10 marines (170 for 10 marines, more than double that for GKT).

Honestly GKTs are fine for footsloggers, but footslogging is a bit weak, and GKT don't get much anti tank per points spent on them. Of course they would be broken good if they could get 2 cannons per 5...

notabot187 wrote:

Testify wrote:Played vanilla termies today and they did brilliantly. I don't understand the hate. 24 I6 S7 PW attacks on the charge That's a dead MEQ squad right there.
Even if charged, they will wipe out 90% of an MEQ squad before they take wounds.

Because a Meq squad in CC is nothing to write home about?

Tell that to BA...assault marines, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, veterans.
Or beyond - Beserkers, Plague Marines. I'm sure there are more.
Being able to annialate an entire squad of MEQ for no loss is pretty impressive by my book.

Testify wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

Testify wrote:Played vanilla termies today and they did brilliantly. I don't understand the hate. 24 I6 S7 PW attacks on the charge That's a dead MEQ squad right there.
Even if charged, they will wipe out 90% of an MEQ squad before they take wounds.

Because a Meq squad in CC is nothing to write home about?

Tell that to BA...assault marines, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, veterans.
Or beyond - Beserkers, Plague Marines. I'm sure there are more.
Being able to annialate an entire squad of MEQ for no loss is pretty impressive by my book.

Ok BA assault marines, you are just like tac marines but without crappy HW options that mix your roles, at least you can get FNP bubbles in your list. But you still suck in CC, and you are only taken because you are better than tacs. Death Company, you are overpriced garbage that only noobs are afraid of. Sang guard, you aren't even real troops in a serious list, and cost way too much compared to what you can do. Vets (sternguard) ok, you guys are pretty good, move along. Vets:vanguard LoL. Zerkers, you aren't even close to being good, overpriced normal CC attacks, essentially orks with power armor. Plagues, not meant to be good in combat other than not dying, still dies to pw/fw.

If you want evidence about how unimpressive it is to kill meqs in CC, look no further than DCA, who can accomplish this for 15 pts per model.

Alright so I don't think may of the above players have much faith or experience going with Terminators in lists so I'll throw my 2 cents in.

As mentioned above, footslogging is on preferable way of running Terminators but that's not really going to get you far with what is available today to most armies in the case of ranged firepower. Teleporting is cute but you'll end up dead just on the other side of the board (unless you face another Grey Knight player who builds a balanced list where you have a high likelihood of never touching the table. If you want Terminators to get across the board and be effective.you need transports. If you go with a Librarian you open the realm of shrouding that allows for 3+ smoke and flat out saves (Land Raiders and Stormravens repectively.) If you go the Raven route, you have a delivery system that can get youfar into the action quickly; however, at great risk. I prefer the Stormraven as once you master deployment and movement you'll have your Ravens get you where the Terminators need to go while your opponent is exceptiinally frustrated. Now this requires a specific build type; however, it hits like a ton of bricks.

If you want more information, I'll elaborate on it later but just remember, you can make any unit work as long as you play to their strengths.

notabot187 wrote:

Testify wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

Testify wrote:Played vanilla termies today and they did brilliantly. I don't understand the hate. 24 I6 S7 PW attacks on the charge That's a dead MEQ squad right there.
Even if charged, they will wipe out 90% of an MEQ squad before they take wounds.

Because a Meq squad in CC is nothing to write home about?

Tell that to BA...assault marines, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, veterans.
Or beyond - Beserkers, Plague Marines. I'm sure there are more.
Being able to annialate an entire squad of MEQ for no loss is pretty impressive by my book.

Ok BA assault marines, you are just like tac marines but without crappy HW options that mix your roles, at least you can get FNP bubbles in your list. But you still suck in CC, and you are only taken because you are better than tacs. Death Company, you are overpriced garbage that only noobs are afraid of. Sang guard, you aren't even real troops in a serious list, and cost way too much compared to what you can do. Vets (sternguard) ok, you guys are pretty good, move along. Vets:vanguard LoL. Zerkers, you aren't even close to being good, overpriced normal CC attacks, essentially orks with power armor. Plagues, not meant to be good in combat other than not dying, still dies to pw/fw.

If you want evidence about how unimpressive it is to kill meqs in CC, look no further than DCA, who can accomplish this for 15 pts per model.

So every single BA unit is overpriced and rubbish? Whut?

Testify: Yes. Assault marines aren't actually very good in combat (good defined able to kill better units than basic troops), the reason why they are good in BA is they are better than tacs, they score, and they have good shooting and transport options. The other things mentioned are gimmick noobslayer units that are points sinks.

As for the where I come down on termies, I actually like them reasonably well. But not because they are super effective in CC. I like them for their shooting ability (relentless) and their durability (fail half as many saves as power armor).

GK termies in Stormravens is a fun list i played with, 2 libbies, 3 ravens, termies......fair amount of mobility to push and reallocate around a battlefield.....Stormravens also provide a fair amount of AT and are pretty sturdy......just me though