Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

IF Asurmen came down by 75 points or got buffed then he might be worth it. As it is, he is a joke.

karandrasss wrote:
Anyone know how Sean Nayden ran his Avatar of Khaine?

https://youtu.be/rIvBbt-2Fkk

He ran an Avatar in game. Used it as Biel Tan to stratagem boost his Shining Spears into assault.

How viable is a 2000pts list of mainly grav tanks competitively?

The bulk of the force I am thinking of would be 6 or so Night Spinners with at least 2 Starcannon Wave Serpents to be a forward threat, holding some infantry, using the Serpent shield to tank 2+ damage weapons.

The reason for no Fire Prisms is they are kinda pricy and I think the ability of Night Spinners to hit what they can't see makes them that much better.

At the moment I'm undecided on Craftworld traits but will probably go with ignore cover at least. Open to suggestions?

Well 3 night spinners is your max. I run starcannon serpents quite a lot, they can be good. Ignore cover for sure if you're going spinners, and I'd take reroll 1 hit and wound automatically, it's the best trait in PA.

Serpents are still a solid choice, and expert crafters make them more strat-independent.

Why only 3 Night Spinners max?

It is a suggested limit in organized events. The rule of three came about in an FAQ suggesting one should be limited to taking a max of three. You mentioned competitively in your previous post which may have led the other poster`s response indicating your idea breaks the rule of three. If you are referencing playing outside of organized events, discuss with your opponent what parameters to use when building the armies.

Personally, I have yet to see any tourney or organized event not utilize the rule of three. As such, local games tended to adopt that as a standard for ease of army design when playing against others.

Ah ok thank you I wasn't aware

Guess I'll be taking 2-3 Fire Prisms instead then

Since Falcons are dirt cheap to buy (already have two), what is the viability of 3 falcons carrying 6 Dire Avengers each to take up your core troop slots in a Batt. Falcons will have starcannons for 125pts ea.

Goal is to have a high number of grav vehicles (as mentioned a few posts up). A couple of prisms, fliers, spinners and maybe a serpent or two.

Yes when making lists I have been trying to maximise number of grav tanks taken otherwise the list doesn't really work

Are falcons really that good? Compared to Wave Serpents they seem to not be as good

I have had it pointed out to me that Guard do the whole vehicle spam better than Craftworlds can. As I can't match on toughness and damage output what can we do better than guard in this kind of list, apart from psychic powers what can we do differently or better? Maneuverability? The deep strike strat for vehicles?

I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.

The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.

I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.

The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up.
Battalion
115 Yvraine
115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS



Airwing
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite

9 Command Points
Craftworld Traits: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
Warlord: Farseer
Warlord Trait: Seer of Shifting Vector
Relic: Faolchu Wing

 bullyboy wrote:
Since Falcons are dirt cheap to buy (already have two), what is the viability of 3 falcons carrying 6 Dire Avengers each to take up your core troop slots in a Batt. Falcons will have starcannons for 125pts ea.

Goal is to have a high number of grav vehicles (as mentioned a few posts up). A couple of prisms, fliers, spinners and maybe a serpent or two.

I have two already and I am looking at picking some up but as it stands, they aren't worth it.

You're much better off paying the extra points for a Wave Serpent as they have an extra wound and are far more survivable with their serpent shield. Leave the heavy weapons to the dedicated anti-tank and go barebones/vectored engines.

Falcons are unfortunately in a weird place where moving means they lose their 3+ to hit and you need to buy CTM to make them at least a little bit viable.

Some of my older ITC lists have run 3 Wave Serpents, 3 Fire Prisms, and 1 CHE as the core but obviously if you wanted to optimise the list further you go for 3 CHE and maybe cut down on the Wave Serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarigar wrote:
I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.

The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.

I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.

The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up.
Battalion
115 Yvraine
115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS



Airwing
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite

9 Command Points
Craftworld Traits: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
Warlord: Farseer
Warlord Trait: Seer of Shifting Vector
Relic: Faolchu Wing

I don't think there's anything subtle about the mortal wound output considering that's a tried and true tactic

Very strong list, I like it!

 Sarigar wrote:
I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.

58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire

As I just finished painting my first three Dire Avengers, I feel compelled to ask: how specifically did you find the boys in blue? You seem to have used them as cheaper and more versatile Guardian replacements for your mechanized element, would you recommend them?

 Charles Rampant wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.

58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire

As I just finished painting my first three Dire Avengers, I feel compelled to ask: how specifically did you find the boys in blue? You seem to have used them as cheaper and more versatile Guardian replacements for your mechanized element, would you recommend them?

Like most troop choices, they're more or less a screen for your more important stuff. Their new Exarch powers mean they can now compete against Rangers and at that point you have to consider whether you prefer 5 sniper shots at 36" range versus 10 (or 12) shuriken shots at 18" range. Don't expect Avengers to survive if they get shot at.

The DA job was mop up and sitting on an objective. The Exarch with Shredding Fire is decent combined with Expert Crafters.

I debate between swapping out one unit to take a squad of Rangers. Their job is to sit on a backfield objective. I don't really like to expose them to shooting. If someone fires weapon that does not require LOS, then the Rangfer stratagem works well to protect them.

It may be due to not having a many Craftworld players, but after two opponents, the mortal wound output seems to be unexpected. The Farseer and Yvraine nnoth have two powers that deal Mortal Wounds, the Hemlocks and even Wave Serpents.

 Sarigar wrote:
I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.

Spoiler:

The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.

I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.

The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up.
Battalion
115 Yvraine
115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS



Airwing
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
161 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Starcannon, 1 Pulse Laser, Hawkeye
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite
210 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Heavy D-Scythe, Jinx, Smite

9 Command Points
Craftworld Traits: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
Warlord: Farseer
Warlord Trait: Seer of Shifting Vector
Relic: Faolchu Wing

Looks like a strong list for most match ups, but you might have trouble with hordes, especially those with inv. saves. A load of chaff could eat all your Smites too. You could switch to Scatter Lasers on the Serpents to help a little with this.


How do people like to run their Serpents?

I tend to stick to Scatter Lasers, and add chin Cannons and CTMs when points allow.
How important are Spirit Stones?
Are the more expensive guns worth it?
Do CTMs work to mitigate the -1? I feel like the more expensive guns are more likely to want to shoot something that's not the nearest target.
Vectored engines?

Typically scatter lasers, chin cannon and CTM if I'm going cheap and cheerful but I also like shuriken cannons for the occasional -3 AP.

I never bother with spirit stones or any upgrades other than CTM. Serpents are already durable without stones and they don't need any more points invested in them. I tend to like my shooting so using vectored engines is normally reserved to last turn dashes or early game pushes. Both of which have their merits but if you're taking VE then maybe don't invest in expensive weapon options.

I don't run them with any other heavy weapons as they're already a potential bullet magnet, and I have other units for dedicated AT or MEQ killing that don't face -1 to hit for moving.

Although I don't usually take Spirit Stones, I often feel like I should. It's a 20% increase in durability for about a 7% increase in price (depending on loadout).

Shuri and star cannons with ctm. Both profiles are happy shooting at anything, so ctm is a big bonus. Chip damage and shield discharge often tip an encounter my way.

I never play without Stones unless Ulthwe.

 Korlandril wrote:
Are falcons really that good? Compared to Wave Serpents they seem to not be as good

Wave Serpents are just a lot more durable thanks to the Serpent field and Fire Prisms are a lot shootier thanks to shooting twice with their Prism Cannon. The Falcon tries to be a compromise between a transport and gun platform and as a result is worse than either. I used them in the past but do not rate them very highly in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

How do people like to run their Serpents?

I tend to stick to Scatter Lasers, and add chin Cannons and CTMs when points allow.
How important are Spirit Stones?
Are the more expensive guns worth it?
Do CTMs work to mitigate the -1? I feel like the more expensive guns are more likely to want to shoot something that's not the nearest target.
Vectored engines?

I usually run triple Shuricannonto keep them cheap and mobile but I sometimes mix it up a bit. I tend to skimp on Stones, CTMs and VEs as I prefer to just invest in more bodies. I always forget the 6+++ from stones in the heat of battle anyway.

Sometimes I do take heavy weapons, it tends to depend what else is in my list. Starcannons are probably my second favourite choice for turret since they are quite cheap since the 2018 Chapter Approved and 4 shots means you can usually rely on some hits, even on the move. Plus with Primaris becoming more popular, Starcannons are pretty efficient at taking them down and can put a few wounds on vehicles too with a bit of luck.

I feel like the Falcon is the MBT with some transport cap, and the Serpent is the MBT that's also a transport.

The Falcon, in theory, has much better firepower. It has a heavy weapon *and* a specialized heavy that, on paper, outperforms other heavies! The Serpent only has a single TL heavy.

However, when TL became "Basically two weapons", the Serpent's TL heavy really closed in on the Falcon's firepower. The Falcon will slightly outshoot a double-BL Serpent, but not by as much as you'd think. The Pulse Laser is usually better than a single other heavy, but not by much. So the Falcon only has slightly better firepower.

But the Serpent still has its 5-star crash rating, greatly outperforming the Falcon for durability. So the Falcon is just the worse tank overall.

The points are closer, so it's not as much a slam-dunk as it was earlier in 8th, though.

Bharring wrote:
I feel like the Falcon is the MBT with some transport cap, and the Serpent is the MBT that's also a transport.

The Falcon, in theory, has much better firepower. It has a heavy weapon *and* a specialized heavy that, on paper, outperforms other heavies! The Serpent only has a single TL heavy.

However, when TL became "Basically two weapons", the Serpent's TL heavy really closed in on the Falcon's firepower. The Falcon will slightly outshoot a double-BL Serpent, but not by as much as you'd think. The Pulse Laser is usually better than a single other heavy, but not by much. So the Falcon only has slightly better firepower.

But the Serpent still has its 5-star crash rating, greatly outperforming the Falcon for durability. So the Falcon is just the worse tank overall.

The points are closer, so it's not as much a slam-dunk as it was earlier in 8th, though.

All this could be made better if the Falcon had the same rule as a Prism. Ya know, the rule that's NAMED after the Falcons primary weapon! Why Falcons don't have PULSED LASER DISCHARGE as an ability, I'll never understand

-

I find CTM quite important, especially for 5 points. I've never used Vectored Engines; I don't really find myself needing more than their movement characteristic. Spirit Stones do make the Seprents more durable against multi damage weapons which I find worth it. I am more and more disappointed with the Shuriken Cannon given the points and with the Expert Crafters trait: I tend to use the reroll for the turret weapon.

I'd like to run Falcons, but I find the Wave Serpent or Fire Prism to perform better to consider it.

A falcon with starcannon is 125pts, probably go 130pts for the CTM.
To go twin starcannon and CTM, the serpent is now at 151pts.

The Pulse Laser is far better than the starcannon, and you're still saving 20pts over the serpent. Granted, the Falcon doesn't compare with serpent when it comes to survivability, but it's cheapness allows it to be added in greater numbers. Of course, you're taking the pulse laser on CHEs currently, but that will probably change after CA.

That 20 points is the difference between your opponent easily popping a falcon and struggling to pop a wave serpent. For the extra 20 points there is no contest and you won't fit in extra Falcons with such a low points difference. You can only take three falcons anyway so moot point.

Take a CH or CHE if you want anti-tank or take a double shooting fire prism or three if you want a grav tank on the field.

Shield discharge is also missing from this equation; as part of a wider mortal wound approach, shields are huge news. Executioner, 2 smites and two shields is enough to drown a key unit in mortal wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I do wish Falcons were worth taking, ever.

But with the amount of damage that's coming out of SM lists at the moment with their crazy AP and IF shenanigans, Falcons are chum in the water. Whereas Serpents can be hard targets to drop in a round, considering how many SM and Tau weapons are multidamage. Getting targeted with IF heavy bolters, or autocannons, burst cannons, siege arrays, etc would mean that a Serpent's wound profile is effectively 24, compared to the Falcon's 11.

 grouchoben wrote:

And I do wish Falcons were worth taking, ever.

"grouchoben
Foolproof Falcon Pilot"

Checks out.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

And I do wish Falcons were worth taking, ever.

"grouchoben
Foolproof Falcon Pilot"

Checks out.

That is an extremely convenient tagline

Falcons just aren't cheap enough, Serpents cost 21pts more comparing Starcannon upgrades on each. For 21pts you suffer a minor damage decrease in return for Serpent shield which defensively is insanely good and it even has a mortal wound offensive option.

For them to be viable Falcons would need to be a lot cheaper at least 25pts I think? That would make them 100pts for a Starcannon loadout and mean you can get about 3 for price of 2 Starcannon Serpents.

I think you just run the risk of making them too powerful by dropping them in points and taking them away from the MBT role that they've been in since the beginning. At that low a points cost they risk becoming a light tank which is really what they are.