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Hello Dakka.

I have a quick codex question for you all regarding the Vindicator entry in the Space Wolves codex.

I was constructing my vindicator model last night and came to check the war-gear section regarding smoke launchers and search lights. I was checking these came as standard and not additional points cost, as my army allows for no additional spend then the base vindicator it's self.

That's when I noticed the war-gear says the vindicator has a storm bolter, BUT in the upgrade section it says a storm bolter is an additional X pts

Which is it? Do I get one as standard or do I pay extra for it, I only have the hatch to construct and I do like to model WYSIWYG.

I will note I have checked the current FAQ version 1.2 and it has no clarification on the matter.

Thanks in advance.

The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

That's how I always viewed it.

Amanax wrote:

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

That's how I always viewed it.

To be honest I have totally over looked that possibility. However if that is the case I'm unsure how you would model a second Storm bolter.

The Storm Bolter you can buy for X points is a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter (See page 63).

Happyjew wrote:The Storm Bolter you can buy for X points is a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter (See page 63).

Ah, I see.

So the free storm bolter should be modelled something liker this pic?



With the points cost storm bolter being fitted to the pintel?

If you trim down the edges f the Cupola you can fit 2 pintle mounts on the Rhino model.

I do it with my CSM Rhinos (come with a TL bolter and then add a combu melta).

deejaybainbridge wrote:So the free storm bolter should be modelled something liker this pic?

There's no "should" in this case, as the rules do not mention how the storm bolter is mounted (hull- or pintle-mounted). Indeed, the upgrade fails to mention how it is mounted, too, so it all comes down to how you choose to model it (BGB pp58-59, 'Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight').

For my CSM Rhinos, the easiest method I have found is to have the pintle-mounted weapon as normal, and have a crewman sticking out of the hatch and firing the other weapon you chose. Works for me, since there are no vehicle-mounted combi-meltas available that I know of.

Cheexsta wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:So the free storm bolter should be modelled something liker this pic?

There's no "should" in this case, as the rules do not mention how the storm bolter is mounted (hull- or pintle-mounted). Indeed, the upgrade fails to mention how it is mounted, too, so it all comes down to how you choose to model it (BGB pp58-59, 'Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight').

For my CSM Rhinos, the easiest method I have found is to have the pintle-mounted weapon as normal, and have a crewman sticking out of the hatch and firing the other weapon you chose. Works for me, since there are no vehicle-mounted combi-meltas available that I know of.

I just clipped the nozzle off a flamer and used a bit or round platic (it might have been sprue, i cant remember) with holes drilled in for the melta barrel. Dead easy.

Note: the storm bolter/TL bolter/combi guns will quite happily fit onto the little cruciform shaped bit that HK missiles attach to on SM tanks.

Praxiss wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:So the free storm bolter should be modelled something liker this pic?

There's no "should" in this case, as the rules do not mention how the storm bolter is mounted (hull- or pintle-mounted). Indeed, the upgrade fails to mention how it is mounted, too, so it all comes down to how you choose to model it (BGB pp58-59, 'Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight').

For my CSM Rhinos, the easiest method I have found is to have the pintle-mounted weapon as normal, and have a crewman sticking out of the hatch and firing the other weapon you chose. Works for me, since there are no vehicle-mounted combi-meltas available that I know of.

I just clipped the nozzle off a flamer and used a bit or round platic (it might have been sprue, i cant remember) with holes drilled in for the melta barrel. Dead easy.

Note: the storm bolter/TL bolter/combi guns will quite happily fit onto the little cruciform shaped bit that HK missiles attach to on SM tanks.

Great note thanks, I was thinking it may fit onto that bracket. I will go with that approach. Thanks everyone.

I can't think how the stormbolter in a rhino kit comes... but the stormbolter in the land raider kit is actually designed to work with the HK missile mount as an option.

Has the same weapon connection arrangement as the cupola pintel weapon mount.

On a side note... what do you think the reasonable limit is for bolt-on Stormbolters? I can see someone buying a rhino and essentially giving it Hurricane Bolter sponsons, lol (and at S4 they can fire all of them)

The reasonable limit is two, just like the codex says...

karlosovic wrote:I can't think how the stormbolter in a rhino kit comes... but the stormbolter in the land raider kit is actually designed to work with the HK missile mount as an option.

Has the same weapon connection arrangement as the cupola pintel weapon mount.

The accessory sprue that comes with the Land Raider is the same one that comes with the rhino.

On a side note... what do you think the reasonable limit is for bolt-on Stormbolters? I can see someone buying a rhino and essentially giving it Hurricane Bolter sponsons, lol (and at S4 they can fire all of them)

You get the one that the vehicle comes with (for those vehicles that come with one) and the one that you can buy as an add-on.

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

This.

But it's a waste of points because your vindicator wants to shoot the demolisher cannon, not the storm bolters.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

This.

But it's a waste of points because your vindicator wants to shoot the demolisher cannon, not the storm bolters.

However once you loose the Demolisher Cannon [and you had the spare 20 points to start with] You will still have 2 Stormbolters and a Hunter Killer Missile and not just mobile cover waiting to be imobalized.

To be honest I have totally over looked that possibility. However if that is the case I'm unsure how you would model a second Storm bolter.

There are two places to put a storm bolter(s) on a rhino / vindicator / razorback / etc.

The first storm bolter gets mounted on the hatch ring of the coupola so that one of the drivers can open the hatch and shoot it. The hatch gets mounted to the hole on the LEFT side of the rhino.

The second storm bolter gets mounted on the same mount as for the HK missile. It's a little "T" shaped piece of plastic with a spot to mount either a storm bolter or an HK missile and it gets glued to a small circular "cap" that goes on the RIGHT side of the rhino.

You can call either one the "pintle mounted" storm bolter - it doesn't matter which.

Most Rhino's and Vindicators can take a 2nd Storm Bolters in all the codexes I know.

Anpu42 wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

This.

But it's a waste of points because your vindicator wants to shoot the demolisher cannon, not the storm bolters.

However once you loose the Demolisher Cannon [and you had the spare 20 points to start with] You will still have 2 Stormbolters and a Hunter Killer Missile and not just mobile cover waiting to be imobalized.

I guess. But for 21 points, you could have a wolf-guard with a storm bolter instead of a 1-shot krak missile and a storm bolter that only gets fired on the off chance that your vindi takes a "weapon destroyed" result. Remember that if you shoot the demolisher cannon - the thing you want to be shooting every turn - then you can't shoot any other weapon. And since they both have 24" range, why would you ever shoot the storm bolter?

Grugknuckle wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Wolfhead wrote:The way I read it: the SW Vindicator comes with a storm bolter, AND you may buy an additional storm bolter if you like.

This.

But it's a waste of points because your vindicator wants to shoot the demolisher cannon, not the storm bolters.

However once you loose the Demolisher Cannon [and you had the spare 20 points to start with] You will still have 2 Stormbolters and a Hunter Killer Missile and not just mobile cover waiting to be imobalized.

I guess. But for 21 points, you could have a wolf-guard with a storm bolter instead of a 1-shot krak missile and a storm bolter that only gets fired on the off chance that your vindi takes a "weapon destroyed" result. Remember that if you shoot the demolisher cannon - the thing you want to be shooting every turn - then you can't shoot any other weapon. And since they both have 24" range, why would you ever shoot the storm bolter?

When.

The word you were looking for in place of "if" was When.

You have a 13 AV front, so many armies are looking to at least glance you to death (or pen that creamy 11 side); this means that you have a 1/3 chance of getting either immobilized or Weapon Destroyed for each damaging shot. Since all weapons on a vindy(excepting the H/K) are 24" range, it is an early target for S7+ weapons, especially 48" 2-shot S7s. Once it is immobilized(or demolisher destroyed) it is often relatively ignored. A second SB makes a Demolisher-destroyed vindi still annoying, and an immobilized vindy that much harder to glance to death.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The reasonable limit is two, just like the codex says...

Where does the codex say that ?

karlosovic wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The reasonable limit is two, just like the codex says...

Where does the codex say that ?

Where it Comes with one and gives you the option to buy another one.

Or is it time for another full round of Option misunderstandings?

A second SB, gives your demolisher cannon only a 1/3 chance of being knocked out on your first weapon destroyed! Remember vehicle weapons are destroyed randomly now, not allocated like 5e. 10 points to change a 50% chance of losing the only weapon that matters to a 30% that is then followed by a 50%. Sign me up. Throw the HK on it and you've got a 75% chance to keep it, followed by a 67% chance to keep it, followed by a 50% chance to keep it, instead of just 1 50% chance.

You'd rather have a single 1 wound wolf guard instead? Sorry, Grugknuckle, I disagree.

Lobukia wrote:A second SB, gives your demolisher cannon only a 1/3 chance of being knocked out on your first weapon destroyed! Remember vehicle weapons are destroyed randomly now, not allocated like 5e. 10 points to change a 50% chance of losing the only weapon that matters to a 30% that is then followed by a 50%. Sign me up. Throw the HK on it and you've got a 75% chance to keep it, followed by a 67% chance to keep it, followed by a 50% chance to keep it, instead of just 1 50% chance.

You'd rather have a single 1 wound wolf guard instead? Sorry, Grugknuckle, I disagree.

In grug's defense; he did write that response about a week before the advance copies of 6th were out.

Now they are more of a no-brainer: 10 points to add 2 more SB snap-shots when firing the demolisher, along with the keepings-chance of the cannon.

Good point Kel, sorry Grug. So use to YMDC posts being minutes old.

@karlos. Why are you digging up pre 6e threads now?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

karlosovic wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The reasonable limit is two, just like the codex says...

Where does the codex say that ?

Where it Comes with one and gives you the option to buy another one.
Or is it time for another full round of Option misunderstandings?

I have not seen any line in any codex or rulebook that says you may only take each vehicle upgrade once.
Even if you think of precedence or similar situations such as Unit choices - unless a unit has a specified maximum number of times that choice may be chosen, there is no limit (except the obvious limits of army points value and FOC)
Take for example Wolf Scouts Pack. The entry doesn't specify how many times you can use this option, but *all* their equipment upgrades do specify a limit - e.g. up to 2 models may replace their bolt pistols with plasma pistols or power weapons.
No where in any rule about vehicle upgrades does it say that you may only take 1 additional stormbolter. (unless you can, like I asked, find some rule that says otherwise.... but *I* can't seem to find it)

Lobukia wrote:@karlos. Why are you digging up pre 6e threads now?

Don't be looking for someone else to blame just because you made a wrong assumption. It wasn't that long ago, it was in reply to a comment someone had made to me, and it's even MORE relevent now as you yourself have pointed out.