Question regarding the Immaterium

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**Titan84**

Is the immaterium unique to the milky way galaxy? Does each galaxy have their own immaterium and their own Chaos Gods? For instance, does the Andromeda Galaxy have it's own version of Khorne and Nurgle duking it out for followers? Or is it all one collective immaterium for everyone? If that's the case I can't see how Chaos isn't just so stupidly powerful, unless Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch are the outcasts of the Chaos Realms. Like the universe is thanksgiving dinner and the Milky Way galaxy is the kids table?

**Hikaru-119**

We don't know much outside of our own galaxy, so don't count on a real solid answer. Hell for all we know this is the last galaxy with life in it thanks to the Tyranids going nom nom nom everywhere else. Sure there may be an immaterium there (I'm sure there is), but the Chaos powers may be weak due to a lack in sufficient psychic energy being given off by whatever inhabits said galaxies.

**riplikash**

Hikaru-119 wrote:We don't know much outside of our own galaxy, so don't count on a real solid answer. Hell for all we know this is the last galaxy with life in it thanks to the Tyranids going nom nom nom everywhere else. Sure there may be an immaterium there (I'm sure there is), but the Chaos powers may be weak due to a lack in sufficient psychic energy being given off by whatever inhabits said galaxies.

We have enough info to make some very educated guesses. I'm going to paste a quote of mine from another thread, but before that, some things we know about the interaction between the materium and the immaterium:
1) it is naturally serene and calm
2) there was life there before daemons that was not dangerous to the materium
3) psychic emotional energy causes disturbances there
4) sufficient disturbances cause insanity in warp beings
5) sufficient disturbances cause warp storms and turbulence
6) sufficient disturbances generate daemons
7) The effects of psychic disturbance are localized i.e. they are stronger closer to the point of disturbance, and decrease in intensity the further away you get
8) the warp calms down over time if not further disturbed

Here's what i extrapolate from those facts, as well as numerous other pieces of fluff:

riplikash wrote:The immaterial is another universe, another dimension, that is loosely bound to the physical universe of 40k. It is naturally a calm, placid place, with peaceful local life forms. These features made it a convenient travel shortcut for the materium. Being another universe, yes there is one immaterial for the entire universe, and it can likely be used for travel in other galaxies the same way it can in the Milky Way.

Native life in the immaterium appears to congregate around linked points in the physical universe, much like sea life gathers around buoys and abandoned ships in the ocean. It provides an anchor for ecosystems to grow. So likely any galaxy hosts similar ecosystems floating in the otherwise tranquil and empty immaterium. There may also be other life forms that live between galaxies, as some sea life travels the great currents of the ocean. But most life is going to be concentrated around galaxies with life in the materium.

The Immaterium is susceptible to psychic emotional emanations from psychically active races in the Milky Way, in two important ways. The first is acting as psychic "pollution". This is both a boon and a curse for the Immaterium. Much like how limited "pollution" from cities or ships can provide nourishment and habitation for sea life, but large quantities prove poisonous and destructive, small amounts of emotional emanations from the materium provided sustenance and anchor for life in the Immaterium, but the large quantities of intense, violent energy generated by the war in heaven, the rise of humanity, and the fall of the Eldar proved disastrous. Most of the native life has been driven insane by the psychic 'pollution' of the Materium and new, violent, virulent life forms (daemons) have also evolved to fill the ecological niche.

Aside from just causing psychic pollution emotional emanations from the materium churn up the fabric of the warp. Like a pebble being dropped in a pool of water, emotions cause ripples in the Immaterium. The more intense the emotions the bigger the ripples. Huge quantities have resulted in a violent, warp storms, reefs, rip tides, and other forms of turbulence.

These two effects have combined to make the local warp a hellish dimention of insane, nightmare creatures, virulent psychic parasites, and churning, roiling warp storms and currents.

However, these effects are localized. The further you get from areas of psychic violence (places of psychic pollution) the less violently distorted the warp seems to be. So each galaxy likely has its own, unique warp ecosystem, while the void between galaxies is likely fairly serene and empty.

Some galaxies (like ours) are going to be like the ocean around a major port like Cairo i.e. polluted and dangerous, full of parasites on human civilization and dangerous predators. Others will be like an untouched collection of reefs and islands in the pacific, teeming with natural life.

**Grey Templar**

Of course Chaos is everywhere.

the Warp is a parallel universe and as such can be accessed anywhere.

There are places where the gap between the two is thinner, but the Warp is everywhere.

**Daemonhammer**

I would go for the "one collective immaterium for everyone" version of the story.

**DA SPEED FREEK**

Daemonhammer wrote:I would go for the "one collective immaterium for everyone" version of the story.

There may be othere rips in the materium spread through out the universe and there may be things simlare to the Immaterium in different dimenshions but apart from that there is only one Immaterium!!!

My word is truth and my opinion is fact, heed my warnings!

**BluntmanDC**

Grey Templar wrote:Of course Chaos is everywhere.

the Warp is a parallel universe and as such can be accessed anywhere.

There are places where the gap between the two is thinner, but the Warp is everywhere.

Seeing as we have no information on this you cannot say that.

I would say that the Ultima Macharia fluff could help, this is a world that is relatively speaking close to Terra, when compared to other worlds. But even this close to Terra the light of the astronomican is near no existant.

This could be due to the fact that the world is near the end of the galaxy and as such it is near the end of the warp galaxy. Seeing as the warp is a parallel reflected universe, in the empty space between the galaxies the warp could either be non-existant of very very thin.

**Manchu**

The Immaterium is the counterpart to the Materium. Other galaxies are not other "materiums" but just part of the same Materium. So there are not other "immateriums" either. Just like there is only one "space" there is also only one "warp space."

**riplikash**

Grey Templar wrote:Of course Chaos is everywhere.

the Warp is a parallel universe and as such can be accessed anywhere.

There are places where the gap between the two is thinner, but the Warp is everywhere.

As I outlined, I don't agree with that. The immaterium is another universe and can likely be accessed everywhere, but Chaos is not the same thing as the Immaterium. The combination of warp turbulence and emotional parasites known as "chaos" is a separate thing from the "warp", and is a localized effect. It was generated by the emotional emanations of psychic races. Outside the area of the warp local to the milky way Chaos likely doesn't exist, at least in the same form. Other galaxies may well have generated their own version of Chaos, but that wouldn't be "chaos" as we know it.

**Manchu**

Your mistake there is thinking of Chaos in discrete terms. Chaos is eternal. For example, the decadence of the Eldar did not really "give birth" to Slaanesh. At most, the fall of the Eldar allowed the Warp to tear into the Materium at a certain point in the Milky Way. (The question of whether Slaanesh existed before it can be said to exist is something of a Zen paradox.) The best discrete answer I have been able to come up with is that, as you say Grey Templar implies, that the "Chaos Gods" are various "personalities" of the conscious Warp. I do agree that different "personalities" could be manifested elsewhere but I think they're all just manifestations of the same Warp consciousness. The Materium, whether here (in the Milky Way) or there (somewhere else), acts and the Immaterium reacts.

**riplikash**

Manchu wrote:Your mistake there is thinking of Chaos in discrete terms. Chaos is eternal. For example, the decadence of the Eldar did not really "give birth" to Slaanesh. At most, the fall of the Eldar allowed the Warp to tear into the Materium at a certain point in the Milky Way. (The question of whether Slaanesh existed before it can be said to exist is something of a Zen paradox.) The best discrete answer I have been able to come up with is that, as you say Grey Templar implies, that the "Chaos Gods" are various "personalities" of the conscious Warp. I do agree that different "personalities" could be manifested elsewhere but I think they're all just manifestations of the same Warp consciousness. The Materium, whether here (in the Milky Way) or there (somewhere else), acts and the Immaterium reacts.

I know of that interpretation (chaos is eternal and always existed, and once Slaanesh existed he/she/it always did), but don't agree with how it is usually interpreted. (besides, it wasn't it written in character for fantasy?)

In 40k we know the warp was once placid, safe, and calm. That there we no daemons. That the war in heaven churned up the warp and drove various warp creatures insane, and generated others, resulting the the Enslavers. We know that it then calmed down during the intervening 60m years and was then churned up again, and then calmed AGAIN.

We warp effects are localized, both within and without the warp. We know every point in the warp does not touch every point the materium, travel is necessary. Their relation to the materium may change over time, but the relationship does exist.

Similarly, time in the warp tied moderately to time in the materium. A ship is most likely to arrive after it has left, and even if it arrives after it is much more common for a ship to arrive hours, days or weeks before it left than to arrive centuries or millenium. Tens of thousands of years displacement is unheard of. The connection is loose, but it exists.

Time and space may follow different rules in the warp, and their relationship to the materium may change over time, but they clearly exists. Slaanesh may represent an exceptionally powerful deviation, but it is clear there was a time where he/she/it could not effect the warp.

The Chaos gods are not the the warp. They did not always exist, despite what their followers may claim. They are creatures within it, born of the uncontrolled emanations of the psychic races of the galaxy.

That is, of course, just my view. But I see to much time/space correlation between the materium and the warp to buy the party line that the chaos gods are omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal. They were born, they change, they wax and wane in power, and it is implied they will one day die.

**Manchu**

I believe the Chaos Daemons codex does say the Warp Gods are eternal. I'll try to get a cite when I get off of work. Of course, who ever heard of trusting a codex with all this "everything is true and nothing is true" bs GW pushes.

**riplikash**

I would be interested in the source as I always like to update my personal fluff based on the codecis, and may revise my position depending on how it is phrased, but I still lean towards it being the "party line". Just because the various Imperial codecii claim the Emperor is omniscient, omnipotent, infallible, and eternal, but most of us don't buy that. It is in the best interest of "gods" to claim to be eternal. But I feel the facts don't support such a conclusion. The chaos "Gods" are not the eternal, divine beings their followers claim. They are inter-dimensional parasites generated by the collective energy of a violent galaxy.

**Manchu**

I'll definitely try to find the citation.

In the meantime, the idea that Chaos Gods are totally dependent upon the psychic force emanating from the Materium doesn't make a great deal of sense on its face. For example, Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. But if his existence is premised on perpetual slaughter then he better damn well care -- else one of his more enterprising aspirants will eventually punch the Blood God's own ticket. Regardless of the poetic justice, such a scenario is totally absurd. And it is pretty handily condemned by another major theme of the Chaos God fluff -- namely, that they rarely turn much if any of their attention toward the Materium anyhow. If the Materium was indeed the source of their existence, it would make no sense for them to be so lackadaisical about it.

To me, it seems clear that the denizens of the Warp no more require anything from real space in order to survive than humans, tau, etc, need anything from the Warp to survive. I think there is at best a very loose connection between the two "planes." The "birth" of Slaanesh, to return to that example, was more along the lines of the Warp taking notice of a certain development in real space in a certain way.

**riplikash**

Manchu wrote:I'll definitely try to find the citation.

In the meantime, the idea that Chaos Gods are totally dependent upon the psychic force emanating from the Materium doesn't make a great deal of sense on its face. For example, Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. But if his existence is premised on perpetual slaughter then he better damn well care -- else one of his more enterprising aspirants will eventually punch the Blood God's own ticket. Regardless of the poetic justice, such a scenario is totally absurd. And it is pretty handily condemned by another major theme of the Chaos God fluff -- namely, that they rarely turn much if any of their attention toward the Materium anyhow. If the Materium was indeed the source of their existence, it would make no sense for them to be so lackadaisical about it.

To me, it seems clear that the denizens of the Warp no more require anything from real space in order to survive than humans, tau, etc, need anything from the Warp to survive. I think there is at best a very loose connection between the two "planes." The "birth" of Slaanesh, to return to that example, was more along the lines of the Warp taking notice of a certain development in real space in a certain way.

That seems to go against the core of their whole mythos though. Them feeding on and being generated by emotional emanations from the materium is their core concept. Almost all fluff speaks in support of that fact. How they didn't exist before the Old Ones created psychic races to war with, how they wax and wane in power. I swear it says in numerous places they require the emotions of material beings to survive.

As for not always acting in their own best interests, they are gods of excess by definition, representative of uncontrolled emotions. They exist only to feed off of and perpetuate the emotions that generated them. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows or if the warrior survives, Slaanesh cares not from whence the sensation comes nor how self destructive, Tzeentch cares not for the outcome of the change/plan, and Nurgle doesn't care if the disease kills all life. They are parasites, only interested in the their portfolio. They constantly push for more and more excess. They take no notice of the affairs of mortals because they don't need to and it isn't in their nature. Just as his followers will follow their emotions to their destruction, so too would the chaos gods.

At this point they are junkies, addicted to and blinded by the wealth of negative emotions in the galaxy. Perhaps they were more reasonable in the past. We know Khorne once supported great champions of honor and protected the weak. At that point he might have been better able to think ahead and plan. But in M41 they have become insane emotion junkies, unable to see beyond their next high.

As always, YMMV, all fluff is true all fluff is false, etc. But I would have a hard time throwing out something as integral to the definition of the chaos gods as being generated by and feeding off the emotions of the materium, which is both supported by the history of the universe and the individuals codecii in exchange for keeping something so rarely mentioned, poorly supported, and easily dismissed as propaganda as the Chaos gods being eternal.

**Manchu**

It seems to me that the psychic energy of material beings (emotions or whatever) doesn't so much "feed" the Warp Gods in the sense of giving them sustenance but rather draws their attention and makes it easier for them to in turn influence the Materium. From the perspective of real space, all this strong emotion does seem to make them more powerful. But what it's really doing is thinning down the usual boundaries between the Materium and Immaterium at a particular joint.

**riplikash**

Manchu wrote:It seems to me that the psychic energy of material beings (emotions or whatever) doesn't so much "feed" the Warp Gods in the sense of giving them sustenance but rather draws their attention and makes it easier for them to in turn influence the Materium. From the perspective of real space, all this strong emotion does seem to make them more powerful. But what it's really doing is thinning down the usual boundaries between the Materium and Immaterium at a particular joint.

But it isn't just their power within the materium that increases, it is their power within the warp. Certainly there is a local weakening in the boundaries between dimensions, but that is only part of what is going on.

I finally have some time to find some specific sources, so I'll list them.

The Eldar codex notes on page 2:

"Within the Warp, thoughts and emotions swell and grow, fed by fellow feelings until they achieve a conciousness of sorts. They become spirits of greater or lesser potency, and their long gestation is followed by birthing pains that rock the Warp" and "the corruption of the decadent Eldar became manifest as their departing spirits began to coalesce into a gestalt conciousness[...] Slowly the Great Enemy stirred fitfully to life." and on and on about the creation of Slaanesh and daemons.

The Chaos Marines codex, 4ed, pg 8:

"in the Warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of warpspace. These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary conciousness and the Chaos Gods were born - vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals. As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew ...[lists of emotions]...feeding the chaos gods and nurturing their power. Eventually, the gods reached into the dreams of mortals to demand their praise and servitude.

A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals..."

I can't find the Necron 4E codex right now (I'll post the quote if I can find it), but it notes that the warp was a calm and safe place with no predatory creatures before the the psychic emanations of the materium polluted it.

Codecii from every perspective agree that the Warp gods and their daemons are generated by and feed off of the psychic energy of mortals, and that there was a time they did not exist. Descriptions like this exist going all the way back to 2E (not sure about Rogue Trader).

As far as i know the only source stating they are eternal is a very old Warhammer Fantasy book, written in character, and notable for using an unreliable author perspective. I have never seen a source stating they exist can or ever did exist independent of the materium.

I would be very interested if you have a source stating otherwise, I'm always interested in new chaos fluff. But everything I have ever seen paints them as parasites, totally dependent on the materium for power and sustenance.

**Manchu**

There are a few direct, if purposefully contradictory, images of the Warp.

It is a place where gods thrive in constant war, fighting over the raw stuff of anti-creation that birthed them.

C:CD 4th p.4

Here we see that the Chaos Gods arise from the Warp itself. Is it because the Warp is something that is stirred up into Chaos that would otherwise be placid nothingness? That does not seem to be the case:

Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.

C:CD 4th p.6

There was no time in which the Warp was not Chaos, a thing to be catalyzed into what we might recognize as Chaos. Still, we should look further to find if Chaos/the Warp is meaningfully different from the Chaos gods (i.e., if they are just inhabitants of Chaos/the Warp). Again, this does not seem to be the case:

... for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.

C:CD 4th p.8

Here is a concise statement of the unity of the Chaos Gods and the Warp. The Chaos Gods are the essence of Chaos; without them, there is no Chaos. And we know, from the quotation above, that Chaos and the Warp are the same thing. No Chaos Gods means no Warp. Still, we'd be remiss to say that the Chaos Gods and the Warp are entirely synonymous, given (as you assert) opinions to the contrary. We have, after all, the Eldar narrative of the birth of Slaanesh. Without their Fall, there would be no Slaanesh and we know the Warp existed before their Fall -- therefore, the Chaos Gods must somehow be separate from the Warp, deriving their existence from emotional triggers in real space. The Daemon dex helpfully reminds us that this is just a matter of perspective:

That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.

C:CD 4th p.7

In other words, the Eldar account is just that: the account that makes sense to the Eldar. But Chaos is not something that can be neatly categorized by something as puny as a mere racial myth. The "birth" of Slaanesh, as I said, is better understood as a moment when Slaanesh took significant interest in the Eldar in the realspace inhabited by them. Their fall caught the attention of Slaanesh and allowed Slaanesh to catastrophically interfere with realspace.

**BluntmanDC**

Manchu wrote:The Immaterium is the counterpart to the Materium. Other galaxies are not other "materiums" but just part of the same Materium. So there are not other "immateriums" either. Just like there is only one "space" there is also only one "warp space."

But due to the fact that there is massive expances of nothing between galaxies the active parts of the warp (those tethered to galaxies) may be treated as seperete if there nearly/nothing linking them together.

If the warp is a counterpart to the material universe it could easily be said that the immaterium is a collection of immaterium galaxies in its own immaterium universe.

**Manchu**

The immaterium is nothing like our galaxy. Concepts like distance and time are largely irrelevant -- or imposed upon perception as an attempt to make sense of what is inherently nonsensical. There is no one-for-one correspondence between the Warp and realspace. There is some kind of connection but how it plays out is impossible to predict (outside of being a navigator) and difficult to even imagine.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Have to go with Riplikash and Bluntman here. The Immaterium isn't just some other dimension. It's the thoughtscape. It's literally where our souls and thoughts exist. If all life in the galaxy ceased to exist suddenly then the immaterium would be a calm as the void between galaxies. Which is how the Immaterium is between Galaxies. Sure there's no 1 to 1 spacetime correlation between realspace and the warp but there is definately a correlation. That's why you can not simply sail through the warp into the next galaxy. It's just deadspace.

**Manchu**

While "thoughtscape" is an interesting concept, I don't know of any fluff to support it. Also, Riplikash says the Warp is another dimension and that the Chaos Gods are interdimensional parasites so ... And who says you can't get to other galaxies via the Warp?

**KamikazeCanuck**

Manchu wrote:While "thoughtscape" is an interesting concept, I don't know of any fluff to support it. Also, Riplikash says the Warp is another dimension and that the Chaos Gods are interdimensional parasites so ... And who says you can't get to other galaxies via the Warp?

Lord Solar Macharius. He tried.
That is the way 40K works. It's been said many times that the dark gods of chaos are the congealed emotions of the realspace races. The reason the warp sucks so much is because the galaxy sucks so much and one of the main reasons the galaxy sucks so bad is because of the warp and so on. In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium irony is always being maximized.

**Manchu**

Macharius wanted to go beyond the bounds of the Astronomican. You can travel beyond that. It's just a lot harder (nigh impossible) to navigate back.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Because the Astronomicon only extends to the edge of our galaxy (because there's stuff here) even on the western side of galaxy which is only like 10,000 light years away. It is asymetrical and approximately galaxy shaped.
Crossing the galactic void is like trying to sail around the world in a sailboat if the ocean had wind or waves. You'd have to hand paddle it.

**Manchu**

Good thing space ships have engines rather than sails? A relatively calm warp is easier traverse. If your theory about absolutely calm warp between galaxies is true (I don't think it is) then traversing it would be no problem -- the only problem is navigation.

Also, I don't think the Astronomican actually covers the entire Milky Way.

**Bassline**

Manchu wrote:Good thing space ships have engines rather than sails? A relatively calm warp is easier traverse. If your theory about absolutely calm warp between galaxies is true (I don't think it is) then traversing it would be no problem -- the only problem is navigation.

Also, I don't think the Astronomican actually covers the entire Milky Way.

It would if it was in the middle of the Milky way but its not so it does not cover alot of the easten side

**KamikazeCanuck**

Manchu wrote:Good thing space ships have engines rather than sails? A relatively calm warp is easier traverse. If your theory about absolutely calm warp between galaxies is true (I don't think it is) then traversing it would be no problem -- the only problem is navigation.

Also, I don't think the Astronomican actually covers the entire Milky Way.

And those fancy space engines take 100,000 years to cross the galaxy. It's those pesky warp currents that allow ships to make it across in only a couple years albeit dangerously. That's why they hire people with three eyes that can see them. In the warp spaceships are like old wind-powered sailing boats. In 40K everything new is old again.

Yes, the Astronomicon only extends 70,000-80,000 lightyears eastwards depending on the weather.

**DemetriDominov**

IMHO, the immaterium is as huge as the material universe, and the reason why the 4 Chaos Gods are only as powerful as they are with the entire universe feeding them, is because of how massive the distances are for their influence to cross. Basically, just like the Astronomican.

**BluntmanDC**

BluntmanDC wrote:
Manchu wrote:The Immaterium is the counterpart to the Materium. Other galaxies are not other "materiums" but just part of the same Materium. So there are not other "immateriums" either. Just like there is only one "space" there is also only one "warp space."

But due to the fact that there is massive expances of nothing between galaxies the active parts of the warp (those tethered to galaxies) may be treated as seperete if there nearly/nothing linking them together.

If the warp is a counterpart to the material universe it could easily be said that the immaterium is a collection of immaterium galaxies in its own immaterium universe.

Manchu wrote:The immaterium is nothing like our galaxy. Concepts like distance and time are largely irrelevant -- or imposed upon perception as an attempt to make sense of what is inherently nonsensical. There is no one-for-one correspondence between the Warp and realspace. There is some kind of connection but how it plays out is impossible to predict (outside of being a navigator) and difficult to even imagine.

So the arguement you are standing on is that no one understands the immaterium but you?

I don't see how you have come to the conclusion that the idea of the warp existing around areas of life in galaxies is completely false. I said nothing about time or distance, i said that the warp is a twisted mirror of the material real, which is fed on life and emotion. So if there is no life or energy in the dead spaces between galaxies the warp would be non-existant (this does not mean it does not exist) as well.