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Hi folks,
Quick question for you all - let's say I have a squad of Warriors with the Tyranid Prime in reserve, and the Hive Tyrant on the board with the Hive Commander ability.

The Hive Commander ability allows a single troop unit to use the 'Outflank' special rule - how does this work with my Tyranid Prime which is attached to the unit? Can/does he out-flank with them, like Gazgull outflanking with Boss Snikrott, or is he not allowed to outflank with the troop squad he is attached to?

Many thanks for your help on this!

scouts and infiltrate, which normally allow the outflank rule are lost when an IC without the USR joins the squad so I (and I am a tyranid player myself) would say no since it is normally not allowed and the rule says nothing about allowing an attached IC to use it. Also snikrot does not use outflank it's ambush i beleive.

That is for Scouts and Infiltrate, however, since the IC is a normal member of the unit, he would be able to outflank with the Troops.

On the other hand, if we use the Mycetic Spore as a precedent for attaching an IC to a unit entering via non-normal means, then it would be a no.

Thanks very much, though reading from your reasons I'd be inclined to disagree with you.

Outflank isn't a USR, just one of abilities that are conferred onto the unit if they have the Infiltrate rule.

Closest matches to this scenario are 1) Ambush, which isn't a USR so like it can be conferred to the IC; and Brood Pregonitor, whereby the Tervigon can apply the Poison and Furious charge abilities to the Termigant squad - which if the Tyranid Prime joins, he also receives...

So for me it all points to him being allowed to outflank with the Warriors, does anyone agree?

when i said USR i meant scouts and infiltrators. One of the most important things to bear in mind with rule queries is that the rules are permissive, if it doesn't say you can do it you cant. Also when an identical rule (USR or not) is lost in the situation you stated, it'd probably safest to assume you would lose it.
Anyway it's all probably moot in a few days.

I think it is a lot simpler than guess work. The BRB states that independent characters can join a unit while they are still in reserve. This new combined unit rolls for reserves as one

Outflank is a deployment syle, so since the IC will deploy in the same way that the unit he joins does, so since outflank is granted not through a USR, the IC should be able to outflank with the warriors

spongemonkee wrote:when i said USR i meant scouts and infiltrators. One of the most important things to bear in mind with rule queries is that the rules are permissive, if it doesn't say you can do it you cant.

Absolutely correct; and in this case the Tyranid Prime's unit is given the permission to outflank.

Also when an identical rule (USR or not) is lost in the situation you stated, it'd probably safest to assume you would lose it.

Complete nonsense in 40k rules. Snikrot is capable of bringing ICs along with him when outflanking(an actually Identical situation), so a USR that grants a capability being lost by/when an IC joins a unit holds no bearing on this situation, and even if it did: SW saga of the Hunter still allows a unit of Wolf Scouts to outflank when the IC is attached(even though they should technically lose the USRs that give the scouts the ability to Outflank)

Anyway it's all probably moot in a few days

You never can tell with GW.

The other argument is that after he joins it's no longer a Troop unit - its a Troop + HQ combined unit.

rigeld2 wrote:The other argument is that after he joins it's no longer a Troop unit - its a Troop + HQ combined unit.

I'd disagree with this. After all, a Troops Unit with a HQ IC in it are able to capture objectives.

The Shadow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The other argument is that after he joins it's no longer a Troop unit - its a Troop + HQ combined unit.

I'd disagree with this. After all, a Troops Unit with a HQ IC in it are able to capture objectives.

I'm not saying how valid it is, only that the argument has been put forth repeatedly within the context of this rule.

Happyjew wrote:That is for Scouts and Infiltrate, however, since the IC is a normal member of the unit, he would be able to outflank with the Troops.

On the other hand, if we use the Mycetic Spore as a precedent for attaching an IC to a unit entering via non-normal means, then it would be a no.

Except that he is NOT a normal member of the squad, he's an HQ IC, not a member of the Troops squad. So once he joins, it is no longer a Troops unit, it is a Troops unit with an attached IC. And all the rule allows is for a Troops unit to Outflank.

The Shadow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The other argument is that after he joins it's no longer a Troop unit - its a Troop + HQ combined unit.

I'd disagree with this. After all, a Troops Unit with a HQ IC in it are able to capture objectives.

Which is a completely different situation, only requiring that a model from the unit be close enough to control.

And it may all be irrelevant next week........................

You know don; you really cannot sit there and state that a unit of troops with an attached IC is not a Unit of Troops for 1 rule and then claim that they are for a separate rule.

"only troops can control [the objective]" BRB, page 90, Scoring units.

If a unit of Troops+HQ is not a unit of troops then they cannot score either.

And yeah that rules-interaction might mean sod-all in 2 days, but the core concept of keeping consistent will not be; If you want to claim something as X in 1 situation, you had better damn well keep it X in all identical situations.

Sure I can. GW has already established this for us. If you deploy that unit of Troops and the attached Warrior Prime in Dawn of War, have you deployed a unit of Troops or have you deployed a unit of Troops and an HQ? Simply put, a unit of Troops with an IC attached is no longer just a unit of Troops, which is all that the Outflank ability is able to affect. Scoring is different, only requiring a model from the troops unit to be within scoring distrance of the objective. The only question with an attached IC would be whether or not a Troops unit could control an objective if the IC was the only model within range. Personally, I'd give that to them. But the Outflank issue is (to me) cut and dry. The rule allows a unit of Troops to be given Outflank. Nothing says it encompasses attached characters. But who knows. maybe 6th will fix this for the Nids.

The IC rules cover that situation.

ICs join units, and you are never given explicit rules to attach ICs to units prior to deployment other than while in reserve.

Since the only method for ICs to join units is for the IC to join the unit; you have the Troops unit deploying and the IC, HQ unit deploying along with them. At deployment they are 2 separate units.

During the game they are a single unit, that unit is both an HQ and a Troops simultaneously.

a few interesting developments:


in scoring, it only says that the unit has to come from an army's troops section, so anything that is bought as troops seems to be able to score (unless meeting one of the exceptions)

and the FAQ for the rulebook states you have to declare an IC is joining a troops unit before declaring which units will infiltrate, outflank, etc.

so it seems a unit can score without being comprised of solely troops.


also, I haven't been able to find a section that states the IC and unit count as one unit, can anyone direct me to that?

Page 49, Independent Characters & Assaults, second paragraph, last sentence, for one such reference.

Happyjew wrote:Page 49, Independent Characters & Assaults, second paragraph, last sentence, for one such reference.

Also ICs and Shooting, Same page, first paragraph, second sentence.

outflank in now a USR and only a single model in the unit needs to have it. IC's are allowed to be deployed in units before the game as long as you inform your opponent