Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there any fluff about the galactic frontier? Those wide, empty reaches of space and sparsely settled worlds ignored by the major galactic powers?

Some of them are full of Tyranids, or else whatever the Tyranids leave behind. Others are deserted, or home to lost human colonies.

Small, Far Away wrote:Some of them are full of Tyranids, or else whatever the Tyranids leave behind. Others are deserted, or home to lost human colonies.

So, there's nothing there? That sucks. I was hoping to see something like the German-Roman frontier, or something more interesting like the Terminus from Mass Effect.

Read horus heresy.... you can read about them being found, and then utterly decimated

Brother Thomas wrote:Read horus heresy.... you can read about them being found, and then utterly decimated

Yes, but the galaxy is a big place, and even after over ten thousand years, I'm sure there's still frontier space.

On that one I wouldn't be to sure. Being that most of the worlds that far flung out tend to be back waters. Also depending where you are. A lot of such worlds get annexed by the tau or infected with gene stealers.

What you're looking for are the core rulebooks for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. Both take place in the most frontier sectors I could imagine but on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Rogue Trader takes place in the Koronus Expanse, a region of space past the Halo Stars in Segmentum Obscurus. It was only relatively recently discovered as it was only accessible by passing through a tiny gap between two massive warp storms known as the Koronus Passage. Beyond this lies a huge region of space that is almost entirely the domain of rogue traders looking to stake their claims. As the region is technically beyond the borders of the Imperium(for now) imperial law is not enforced and the rogue traders hold just as much sway as any inquisitor or imperial guard commander, if not more. I highly recommend both the rogue trader corebook as well as the supplement Edge of the Abyss, which goes into more detail about individual planets.

Deathwatch takes place in a place known as the Jericho Reach, an open frontier to the far far south east of Ultima Segmentum. It was formally an imperial sector who was eventually lost and only recently rediscovered. The Reach has a strong central Chaos presence, huddled around a location known as the Hadex Anomaly. From the south, a large Tau expansion fleet looks to colonize and claim the Reach, and from the north, a tendril of Hivefleet Dagon slowly moves across the Reach.

jareddm wrote:What you're looking for are the core rulebooks for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. Both take place in the most frontier sectors I could imagine but on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Rogue Trader takes place in the Koronus Expanse, a region of space past the Halo Stars in Segmentum Obscurus. It was only relatively recently discovered as it was only accessible by passing through a tiny gap between two massive warp storms known as the Koronus Passage. Beyond this lies a huge region of space that is almost entirely the domain of rogue traders looking to stake their claims. As the region is technically beyond the borders of the Imperium(for now) imperial law is not enforced and the rogue traders hold just as much sway as any inquisitor or imperial guard commander, if not more. I highly recommend both the rogue trader corebook as well as the supplement Edge of the Abyss, which goes into more detail about individual planets.

Deathwatch takes place in a place known as the Jericho Reach, an open frontier to the far far south east of Ultima Segmentum. It was formally an imperial sector who was eventually lost and only recently rediscovered. The Reach has a strong central Chaos presence, huddled around a location known as the Hadex Anomaly. From the south, a large Tau expansion fleet looks to colonize and claim the Reach, and from the north, a tendril of Hivefleet Dagon slowly moves across the Reach.

Very nice, thank you very much.

There's also the Ghoul Stars. Indeed, the entire Eastern Fringe is "dark" in that the Astronomican does not reach that far. The Tau are out there and apparently the Necrons, too.

Just wanted to add that the Jericho Reach is so far southeast that it doesn't just have the astronomicon dimmed, it's gone completely. The only way the region as a whole can be entered from the Imperium side is through a massive, ancient xenos warp gate that had been discovered. Once in the region, short distance calculated jumps can be used to get around without a tremendous amount of difficulty. Interestingly enough, this puts the Imperium on the same footing as the Tau when it comes to being able to rapidly respond to events in the region.

There's Orks, "horrors", undiscovered races and human worlds, smugglers and pirates, swarms of Tyranids, and what have you. It's not a very pleasant place.

My personal craftworld is floating somewhere southeast of the Uhulis sector in the segmentum Obscuris.

But I think frontier space is just really anything with little or no imperial presence, filled with nasty xenos and heretics too.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:My personal craftworld is floating somewhere southeast of the Uhulis sector in the segmentum Obscuris.

But I think frontier space is just really anything with little or no imperial presence, filled with nasty xenos and heretics too.

Curiosity: what's the specialty of your Craftworld?

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:My personal craftworld is floating somewhere southeast of the Uhulis sector in the segmentum Obscuris.

But I think frontier space is just really anything with little or no imperial presence, filled with nasty xenos and heretics too.

Curiosity: what's the specialty of your Craftworld?

Well, I've only started writing up the fluff, but it's basically one of the smaller craftworlds that tried to escape the Fall early. Unfortunately, they were caught by the blast and the craftworld split into many fragments. Some of the larger fragments crashed onto planets in an isolated system in the Segmentum Obscuris, with some survivors still on there. Since the fall, they have been rebuilding the craftworld to one day roam the stars again. So they're kind of a mix between exodites and craftworld eldar.

I also a "fleet" of my old craftworld helping them get back to space, accounting for the fact that I'm repainting my terribly old eldar and changing the colour scheme.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:My personal craftworld is floating somewhere southeast of the Uhulis sector in the segmentum Obscuris.

But I think frontier space is just really anything with little or no imperial presence, filled with nasty xenos and heretics too.

Curiosity: what's the specialty of your Craftworld?

Well, I've only started writing up the fluff, but it's basically one of the smaller craftworlds that tried to escape the Fall early. Unfortunately, they were caught by the blast and the craftworld split into many fragments. Some of the larger fragments crashed onto planets in an isolated system in the Segmentum Obscuris, with some survivors still on there. Since the fall, they have been rebuilding the craftworld to one day roam the stars again. So they're kind of a mix between exodites and craftworld eldar.

I also a "fleet" of my old craftworld helping them get back to space, accounting for the fact that I'm repainting my terribly old eldar and changing the colour scheme.

Good luck with that.

Kinda like that dead Craftworld on Typhon, except this one still has a chance of surviving. I'm surprised Alaitoc/Biel-Tan aren't helping though. Those two are usually more helpful of other Eldar unlike treacherous Ulthwe, or semi-barbaric Saim-Hann, or depleted Iyanden (although its not really their fault).

jareddm wrote:Just wanted to add that the Jericho Reach is so far southeast that it doesn't just have the astronomicon dimmed, it's gone completely. The only way the region as a whole can be entered from the Imperium side is through a massive, ancient xenos warp gate that had been discovered. Once in the region, short distance calculated jumps can be used to get around without a tremendous amount of difficulty. Interestingly enough, this puts the Imperium on the same footing as the Tau when it comes to being able to rapidly respond to events in the region.

That's also because the Jericho Reach only exists to be a setting for the FFG RPGs, lol. They needed to describe a place where all the 40K factions could exist at the same time, and wouldn't have to worry about retconning any existing material.

Except it doesn't have all the races in it and the fact that it's only used by FFG doesn't make it any less applicable as a location in 40k.

Who is missing? From the major players, that is. I mean, I'm not 100% on the background, so I don't know which races haven't made it into a supplement yet. They're only a few years into publishing it obviously. But they have Chaos, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, plus the regular players of IGuard, Spess Mahreens, Inquisition, etc.

As far as whether or not it is more or less applicable, it's still important to note that it is indeed from an entirely different game, and a setting that is purpose built for its intended use.

You could say the same thing about Kronus or Aurelia from the video games. Having the GW logo makes it just as viable a location as any other sector that's been published. And I suppose if you want to say that there's minor presences of Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar, than yes, they all exist. But they're not nearly the main focus of the Jericho Reach. Those three are given far more focus in Rogue Trader in the Koronus Expanse.

Also you forgot Necron, who are a big focus in Black Crusade

jareddm wrote:Y And I suppose if you want to say that there's minor presences of Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar, than yes, they all exist.

It's an RPG. What do they need to have more than a "minor presence"? The player characters, with a couple exceptions, are all humans. Everybody else exists to be shot at. As long as there is a "minor presence", then they can be used as antagonists.

Now are you starting to understand why I say it's purpose built? The FFG games aren't designed to imitate the 40K tabletop experience, only to utilize the popularity of the license to it's most effect. It's designed specifically to provide a place where in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only a series of limited scope, small scale skirmishes against any kind of enemy that can be resolved by a handful of individuals.

I'm sorry, the "40k tabletop experience"? It's an RPG, it's not a war game and it's not always about shooting everything in the face. 40k as a setting can be used for any number of different genres and isn't limited to just large-scale battles, or even only combat. If all you see the 40k RPGs as good for is playing out skirmish battles, than I think you're missing a lot of what an RPG can do. There's plenty that can be done via roleplaying with the political structure of the crusade or the strange mix of tolerance and intolerance that goes on across the Tau worlds or assisting an contingent of missionaries in attempting to convert a newly-discovered human world or any number of other scenarios that don't consist entirely or even majorly of combat. That said, there's nothing from stopping the players from joining the crusade high command at higher levels and helping to plan their own missions and the movement of forces to help assist them. None of which necessarily requires combat.

The player characters, with a couple exceptions, are all humans

Now I know you're talking about all 40k RPGs as one thing, which is really the wrong approach to take. Each has a completely separate location with different stories, worlds, and individuals. Deathwatch, for instance, is about playing as space marines and takes place during a crusade against Tyranids, Chaos, and Tau. All other races don't really exist in the sector to have any major impact on the storyline. Whereas Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, where you're playing as billionaire playboys and inquisitorial acolytes respectively, has a large Ork empire and large numbers of Eldar corsairs flying around, but you would never find Tau or Tyranid there. And unlike the larger 40k galaxy, these locations have actual storylines that can advance and change and cause significant impact to the worlds within them.

As for being purpose built, you could say this about all the little battle blurbs that are mentioned in the codices. With few exceptions, these are all worlds that exist for the sole purpose of having two or more races fight each other. We know nothing about the worlds themselves, their populations, their importance to the surrounding area. In most cases, we don't even know what Segmentum they were in. These are things that are important in an RPG because the combat isn't the main focus, it's the storylines and maintaining character immersion. A feat which requires more detail than the 40k books outside of FFG tend to have.

You're still about four feet off target. Need to go about twelve clicks left and seven up.

I said, very specifically, that it isn't designed to be 40K the tabletop game. I've probably got a tremendous more experience both with RPGs and with writing than you do, so please save the lessons until you're at the very least up to speed with the discussion at hand. Start looking at the context than focusing on my humorous spin on 40K's classic tag line. I thought that would be glaringly obvious, but some people need bold tags or itallics, or smilie faces on everything I guess.

Of course, the most bizarre part is that you're making my argument for me, not even realizing that much of what you're saying is exactly what I just did, only with more words.

I'm gonna try to break this down for you. There are very good reasons it took almost 20 years for there to be a 40KRPG even though WHFRP has been around forever. The problems with a 40K RPG are this:

Setting. Fantasy is an easy world to roleplay in. It's Tolkeinesque with various realms of different races all smushed together. If players want to go visit dwarves, they just walk there. The different nations may war against eachother on a regular basis, but isn't "only war". 40K is full of xenophobic empires where different races aren't tolerated. Thus, the question becomes how do you make a 40K RPG that still captures the elements of 40K the player base will demand. After all, there are Eldar fans, Ork fans, etc, but all those groups hate each other and can't live in harmony in the same place.

Scope. These xenophobic empires are also vast distances apart. A game set on a hive world will never encounter a single important xenos from the tabletop game. As much as you may want to pretend it isn't, 40K is a tabletop game. Everything that the core player base understands about 40K comes from a game with 28mm heroic scale plastic and metal toy soldiers. So, without orks, or Chaos, or genestealers, etc, it isn't really 40K. And there are only so many times you can disrupt that pesky Chaos Cult before a long term campaign goes stale. So, how do you explain how the character go from place to place and encounter a bunch of different aliens and defeat them? This isn't Star Wars where even a broke-ass smuggler can afford his own FTL capable space ship. So the traditional thrown together party of characters is harder to manage. So you smush all these planets and factions together and give the characters the ability and authority to travel easily between them just like in many traditional RPGs.


The crux of all of this comes back to the language that you, for whatever reason, decided to harp on. The Jericho Reach was designed to give the players a place where they could bounce around and encounter as few or as many different kinds of aliens as they wanted/needed to. Your meandering thoughts on who is where and when are irrelevant. And using the word "never" is probably not very smart, because that's definitely not true. The settings for the 40K RPGs are very specifically engineered for those purposes. I'll spell them out for you again:

Go to 40Kish places. Potentially meet all the important different types of people and aliens in 40K. Do whatever it is that you want to do once you've met them (since you seem to want to take "exists to be shot at" literally). Least possible limitations to the player characters' ability to do the previous three things within a believable story framework.

Veteran Sergeant wrote: I've probably got a tremendous more experience both with RPGs and with writing than you do

To be blunt, I wouldn't care if you were Gygax himself if I thought the point you were making was incorrect.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm gonna try to break this down for you. There are very good reasons it took almost 20 years for there to be a 40KRPG even though WHFRP has been around forever.

And yet people have been homebrewing 40k-based RPGs for years . It couldn't possibly have to do with GW not wanting to worry about sharing creative control with another company.

Setting. Fantasy is an easy world to roleplay in. It's Tolkeinesque with various realms of different races all smushed together. If players want to go visit dwarves, they just walk there. The different nations may war against eachother on a regular basis, but isn't "only war". 40K is full of xenophobic empires where different races aren't tolerated. Thus, the question becomes how do you make a 40K RPG that still captures the elements of 40K the player base will demand. After all, there are Eldar fans, Ork fans, etc, but all those groups hate each other and can't live in harmony in the same place.

This have been done before even just between varying human nations who refused to speak with one another. Settings like Rokugun and Al-Quadim were always filled with xenophobic cultures that had an occasional, confrontational run in with an "outsider"

Scope. These xenophobic empires are also vast distances apart. A game set on a hive world will never encounter a single important xenos from the tabletop game. As much as you may want to pretend it isn't, 40K is a tabletop game. Everything that the core player base understands about 40K comes from a game with 28mm heroic scale plastic and metal toy soldiers. So, without orks, or Chaos, or genestealers, etc, it isn't really 40K. And there are only so many times you can disrupt that pesky Chaos Cult before a long term campaign goes stale. So, how do you explain how the character go from place to place and encounter a bunch of different aliens and defeat them? This isn't Star Wars where even a broke-ass smuggler can afford his own FTL capable space ship. So the traditional thrown together party of characters is harder to manage. So you smush all these planets and factions together and give the characters the ability and authority to travel easily between them just like in many traditional RPGs.

Or you could just do what players do in fantasy RPGs and buy passage on a ship to get from one place to another. They don't need to own the ship themselves, or even be the ones in command. I would even say the thrown together party becomes even easier to imagine because such hives and ships are so vast, that any type of person could be found within them. In fact, this was one of the primary methods presented in Dark Heresy, which is the 40k RPG that remains most true to a classic RPG and thus has a setting most similar to what you're referring to. But I would not say that all of the 40k RPGs take the same approach.

As much as you may want to pretend it isn't, 40K is a tabletop game. Everything that the core player base understands about 40K comes from a game with 28mm heroic scale plastic and metal toy soldiers.

This bothers me the most of everything you said. 40k may have started as just a tabletop game, but as times goes on, more and more people are exposed to 40k through other mediums besides the tabletop, and in fact may never get into the tabletop. Between Black Library, Relic, and FFG, there are a lot more ways to enter the setting than there used to be and none of them are required to consider the tabletop as a better approach than their own.

jareddm wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm gonna try to break this down for you. There are very good reasons it took almost 20 years for there to be a 40KRPG even though WHFRP has been around forever.

And yet people have been homebrewing 40k-based RPGs for years . It couldn't possibly have to do with GW not wanting to worry about sharing creative control with another company.

This would be reasonable to assume, except they'd already done that plenty of times. GW wants control of their IP, but they have been handing it off to partners for years. If WHFRP isn't the easy indicator, we'll go back to other things you've already mentioned. Video games. There have been about a dozen of them and involed handing off some measure of creative control to another company.

This have been done before even just between varying human nations who refused to speak with one another. Settings like Rokugun and Al-Quadim were always filled with xenophobic cultures that had an occasional, confrontational run in with an "outsider"

Not 40K. Not anywhere even close. Irrelevant. Please stick to the dicussion at hand. Nobody cares about how L5R did it. That is actually especially irrelevant because the nations in Rokugan are very clearly, and admittedly based on real world countries and cultures.

Or you could just do what players do in fantasy RPGs and buy passage on a ship to get from one place to another.

No such thing as affordable interstellar passenger travel in 40K.

They don't need to own the ship themselves, or even be the ones in command.

Funny. Hence exactly why the games are structured as they are.

I would even say the thrown together party becomes even easier to imagine because such hives and ships are so vast, that any type of person could be found within them.

You're not getting what I mean by a "thrown together party". Has nothing to do with the variation between character classes. It has to do with the rather arbitrary nature of most groups and the specific and purposeful omission in most RPG settings for a group with a truly cohesive back story or motivations.

This bothers me the most of everything you said.

Seems unfortunate. It's a core concept that requires understanding for participation.

but as times goes on,

Time hasn't gone on yet. Let's talk about now, and more importantly, about 4 years ago when the game was conceptualized. Stay on target. You're losing Tiree and Dutch.

At any rate, I've now made two Star Wars references, which exceeds my acceptable nerd level for any given discussion, despite the fact that we're talking about movies I had memorized by the time I was 5. Since we're not on the same page yet, I'm going to assume it's never going to happen, and the continued conversation will only lead to contemptuous ridicule which tends to upset the moderators.

Games-workshop seems to be writing more fluff/species for the galatic frontier with the deathwatch and rogue trader RPGs. Specially loving the Rak'Ghols, it's like a futuristic version of the lizardmen