Any Official Word on Necron Death Ray Being Drawn Across Units Locked In Assault?

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**Darklight**

I just pulled the latest 6th Ed Necron FAQ. GW still hasn't addressed if the Death Ray can be used across units locked in assault.
Reading the RAW, in my mind, would demonstrate that you can. You aren't actually targeting a unit, you are targeting the ground and drawing a line.

Has there been any official word on this?

**Cryogen**

I ran across the exact same problem with 'Beam' type psychic powers in my first game of 6th. And in addition to that, it seems that since it doesn't target a unit you don't even have chance for a deny the witch against it.

I suspect the answer to one of our questions will help the other.

**cgage00**

You can't do it ref page 28 shooting into and out of combat. It is boldes models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat. Also the death ray isn't listed as a beam attack ref page 414.

**Cryogen**

Except you aren't shooting into a combat, you're shooting at a point on the board which happens to run through a combat.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in intent, but I think the rules are not clear cut on this.

**cgage00**

It's pretty clear if you read it. It says no never don't do it. It does say blasts and templates can drift then fine everyone gets hurt but as a general rule of thumb don't do it.

**Cryogen**

Yes, but a beam is not a template, nowhere in the beam rules does it say that it is.

**cgage00**

The death ray isn't a beam.

Beams, rapid fire, assault, heavy, witch fire, can not be fired into combat.

Templates could drift into combat but they can't target or try or place the template touching combat.

So still you can't do it.

**Cryogen**

My apologies, I have inadvertently hijacked the thread somewhat. I am specifically speaking about beam psychic powers. As the death ray is not a beam, I will make my own thread.

**Darklight**

cgage00 wrote:The death ray isn't a beam.

Beams, rapid fire, assault, heavy, witch fire, can not be fired into combat.

Templates could drift into combat but they can't target or try or place the template touching combat.

So still you can't do it.

I completely disagree. You absolutely CAN do it using the RAW at this time. You are in no way targetting or shooting at a unit.

**Formosa**

call me simplistic, but if you cant shoot into combat and its pretty clear they dont want you to be able to, and someone tries to do so... well its 5th wound shenanigans again... it may be legal... but its legal cheating

**nosferatu1001**

Darklight - you are shooting a weapon at a unit. RAW you are 100% incorrect.

**Darklight**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Darklight - you are shooting a weapon at a unit. RAW you are 100% incorrect.

You ARE NOT shooting a weapon at a unit. You are shooting the Death Ray at the ground. There is no unit targeting involved.

**coredump**

And when I fire the bolter, am not shooting at your commander, just the spot 1mm behind him....

**Grey elder**

Let me just leave this here it details the exact same arguement using JOTWW, which only target the first mdoel hit, allowing it to hit the models behind it are debatebly.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/452317.page
P.S yes it's 5th edition but the restrictive wording is the exact same, and hence the arguement is on the same principle. You target the first unit the one behind just happens to get hit does this constitute shooting into CC well look at the thread and see what the two basic sidelines are.

**nosferatu1001**

Darklight wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Darklight - you are shooting a weapon at a unit. RAW you are 100% incorrect.

You ARE NOT shooting a weapon at a unit. You are shooting the Death Ray at the ground. There is no unit targeting involved.

Ah, you seem to think that "Target" and "Shooting" are the same thing. They arent.

You are shooting the DEath Ray, a *weapon*, AT a unit locked in combat. This is explicitly prohibited.

Try to find an argument which doesnt involve you mistaking the word Target for the word Shooting.

**Nitros14**

Jaws of the World Wolf counts as targetting the first model hit by the line.

This works identically to Jaws.

Presumably the same ruling applies.

**Bylak**

That JOTWW thread seems silly to me. Would you be prevented from using it against a model that is a legal target but would cause the ability to pass through a unit in CC? If you can target said model, does the ability just "skip over" the unit in CC and continue until it reaches 24"?

Granted I'm only on page 5 of the thread so maybe the resolution to the problem is still coming, but to me it seems like JOTWW and the Death Ray are both fair game for hitting units in CC as long as the initial target is a legal one. The argument for being able to pass through units in CC seems stronger for the Death Ray as well since there's the random element of how far it can shoot past the initial target.

EDIT: I wasn't remembering the rule for the Death Ray correctly. I thought it was "pick a point and a direction, the beam goes out 3D6" in that direction" and not "pick a point, choose another point 3D6" from the first and draw a line between those two points". That seems a little more discriminate to me and grounds for it potentially not being used if it passes over a unit in CC. However it then also runs into the problem I have with JOTWW and whether or not you'd be incapable of using it if you have units hanging out close to other units that are in CC. I guess my TL;DR at this point is "hmm, I don't know!" <.< lol

**Praxiss**

O, lets say i target a SM Rhino with my Death Ray. the tank is 6" away and beside it are a coupe of units in CC.

I target the Rhino, roll my distance of 12" for the 1mm line of Death ad it passes over the Rhino (yay!) but also over the combat.

Does that mean the shot desn't count? I hit the target i declared afterall.

Does the Dethray leave a burnign furrow in the ground right throught he middle of the combat, miraculously missing everyone involved?

**Bylak**

Praxiss wrote:O, lets say i target a SM Rhino with my Death Ray. the tank is 6" away and beside it are a coupe of units in CC.

I target the Rhino, roll my distance of 12" for the 1mm line of Death ad it passes over the Rhino (yay!) but also over the combat.

Does that mean the shot desn't count? I hit the target i declared afterall.

Does the Dethray leave a burnign furrow in the ground right throught he middle of the combat, miraculously missing everyone involved?

I think the argument that could be made is that since you can choose the direction of the shot you'd have to choose a direction in such a way that it doesn't pass over the units in CC.

**tgf**

I would never think to try this, you aren't allowed to shoot into combat, so I think intentionally aiming in a way that could hit combat is a no-no. Going to fantasy you are not allowed to aim a cannonball in such a way it would bounce into combat or friendlies I would think the death ray would be conceptually alike.

**Brother Ramses**

I will repost what I posted in the other thread as no one was able to actually argue against it without changing the words of the RAW to fit their argument.

As per the course of a RAW argument, this one has taken the predictable course of redefining the World of Warhammer 40k definitions to make an argument work to what is now the fluff versus rules debate. Addressing the page 40 nonsense first:

Page 40, BRB: SHOOTING INTO & OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT:

Likewise, while especially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted.

Semantics aside over what is fluff and what is rules, you only need to look at the damn title as to see what you are talking about and where you need to look for reference in the BRB. Small hint, SHOOTING into & out of close combat. You can try and argue exactly what "fire indiscriminately" means, but the very title references the World of Warhammer 40k defined rule of shooting. Considering the reference of the above page 40 entry, the only conclusion that can be drawn from it is that it only reinforces that which is already present in the rules for shooting on page 15/16 of the BRB as well as clarifying specific situations that occur in regard to template and blast weapons. Therefore it is old news that,

You cannot shoot into close combat.

However, page 40 is referencing a defined process in the World of Warhammer 40k, shooting. If everyone would turn their books to page 15, "THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE" is a defined process. This is of course the default general rules for shooting of which PSA are to follow unless a codex exception to the general rules for shooting a psychic power exists. However, it is this shooting sequence that page 40 is reinforcing;

Page 15, BRB: DISALLOWED SHOOTING:

Certain situations prevent a unit from firing. The most common are;

Units that are locking in close combat with a foe.

......

And then you find on on the following page of the BRB;

Page 18, BRB: CHECK LINE OF SIGHT & PICK A TARGET:

A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in close combat as its target, and many not split its fire among different targets.....

You must note that in both instances above the word "fire" or "firing" have been used in describing actions taken during the shooting sequence which ties it intrinsically to the page 40 entry of, "to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combat." Therefore, "to fire indiscriminately" into close combat specifically means that you are prohibited as per the rules as described on page 15 and 16 of the BRB; being disallowed from shooting if locked in close combat and from choosing a single enemy unit locked in combat as its target.

Summary of page 40 nonsense;

Page 40 only reinforces that firing into close combat is prohibited as already defined by the shooting rules on page 16 of which it clearly states, "A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that it not locked in combat as its target...".

How this then applies to JotWW when the power targets a model outside of close combat and the line then runs through models in close combat is simple reading comprehension;

Did JotWW choose a single enemy unit that was not locked in combat as its target?

Yes, and therefore per the defined rules of page 16 and page 40 it did not "fire" into close combat.

The second issue that has come up in the last page or two now addresses where does JotWW get permission to hit models in close combat with the example given of other types of shooting attacks (scattering templates) as well as other psychic shooting attacks (Nurgle's Rot) that give explicit permission.

Now I originally quoted the SW FAQ wrong to which JWolf was happy to jump on however he then obviously decided that the actual wording was just as devastating to his argument as my mistake. The FAQ entry is as follows;

SW FAQ VERSION 1.2, JANUARY 2012:

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in
effect he is treated as the target model; the power just
happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

Embolden part by myself as this is specific in who else, OTHER then the target model can be affected by the power. If you missed it, it says,

EVERYBODY ELSE!

Now my initial post regarding this was using the word "any", however the word "everybody" is just as applicable to include every eligible unit type the line touches after the initial target model is affected, will be affected. So to those asking for the permissive rule that allows the power to affect units in close combat behind the initial unengaged target model; they would be included in, "the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"

**Multra**

I would run it the same as 5th ed JotWW FAQ ruling. The first unit it crosses is considered the "targetted" unit. Just make sure the FIRST unit that line touches isnt locked in combat and you are golden.