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As an ork player, I'm not overly thrilled with the challenge rule. Our low initiative means we will usually get killed before striking back.

Also, ultimately, I would much rather my Nobz kill 2-3 Marines on the charge rather than only kill his Sergeant for 1 wound. Not to mention that if the Sarge has a power fist, it makes very likely that he will kill my Nobz while I kill him... ending in a net result of 2 wound for him, 1 for me... so yeah, not good.

Refusing a challenge is just as bad however, as it means the character won't get to fight at all...

It's a shame really, as the image of a powerfully build ork bellowing a war challenge fits extremely well with the narrative and imaginery of the game... but from a more systematic point of view, it's usually a terrible idea for an ork to fight a challenge.

So than, I'd much rather avoid challenges. I believe the rule has written allow for this, I just want to see if the rest of the internet agrees with my interpretation.

Here goes:

According to page 429, Challenges are Declared and Refused/Accepted before the Initiative Step, so before the 3'' iniative Pile in.

According to page 64, models that cannot fight (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept a challenge.

According to page 23, an engaged model is a model that, during his Initiative Step, is either in B2B with an enemy model or is within 2'' of a friendly model who is in B2B with an enemy model.

So in short... if I can keep my characters more than 2'' away from the 'front line', the challenge will be issued, but I will have no one able to accept it. Thus I won't be penalized for doing so. So putting my characters deep within a big group of boyz (say, 4'' within) means that they are in fact, non valid target. When they initiative steps come, they will be able to do their 3'' pile in move, getting within 2'' of the engaged models, which will make them engaged in turn and allow them to strike.

Since only one challenge can be issued per close combat, this means my characters will be safe for the rest of that close combat, even if it goes on to last several round or if another group joins in the frey (it is still the same CC fight).

Am I correct?

Yes.

So i take it a blood angels player could do the same with a sanguinary priest? They could have them right at the back of the group unengaged when the enemy unit tries to challenge them they wont be able to accept because they are not currently engaged?

Power Klaws are great, but not the only weapon. Might be useful to consider taking other weapons.


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I checked twice, grenades no longer need 6s to hit walkers. It merely replaces all attacks with 1.

Well yeah, this is not only limited to orks... it just came to me because for the most part, orks are simply poor duelist.

The way I see it, it falls to the guy charging to position himself in such a way as to be sure the challenge can work - if you can tag the other guys' character with your charging unit, he has no choice to accept/refuse and live with the consequence.

An interesting side effect of the challenge rule is that SM sergeants with dual lightning claws (while expensive) are actually going to be really good Sergeant killers. In fact, with 4 Attack on the charge, hitting on 4+ and re-rolling wounds, they will make short work of most 'minor' HQ (You know, the kind with only 2 wounds and no or bad Inv Save - i.e. Librarian, Weirdboy, Lord Commissar, etc).

Correct on how to have you cake and eat it too, as in the nob getting his attacks. But the one challenge per combat is in regards to multi assaults, a new challenge can be made each player turn. So in your turn you could just not issue a challenge and you would get 2 assault rounds of effectiveness, but after that you can get called in again. Although you could kill enough of the enemy that you are >3" away then it would work again.

Shadelkan wrote:Power Klaws are great, but not the only weapon. Might be useful to consider taking other weapons.


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I checked twice, grenades no longer need 6s to hit walkers. It merely replaces all attacks with 1.

True, but that's not really the point of the thread. As mentioned, there's other character than PK Nobz that would benefit from avoiding challenges.

Not to mention that even with a Big Choppa or just plain CCW + Pistol, with Initiative 3 (FC no longer increase ini), you still attack much slower than the majority of other characters out there. Granted, you may kill the guy with a power fist before he instant kills you... but that doesn't help you any against people killing you at Ini 4!

True true. I only mentioned grenades, because loads of folk take powerfists and whatnot for anti-dreadnaught.

DarbNilbirts wrote:Correct on how to have you cake and eat it too, as in the nob getting his attacks. But the one challenge per combat is in regards to multi assaults, a new challenge can be made each player turn. So in your turn you could just not issue a challenge and you would get 2 assault rounds of effectiveness, but after that you can get called in again. Although you could kill enough of the enemy that you are >3" away then it would work again.

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of what a Combat is... but I can see how it could be interpreted the way you say it is. That's problematic. Don't really like the idea of my character living on borrowed time... guess winning the fight with overwhelming force will be very important.

Tarkand wrote:So putting my characters deep within a big group of boyz (say, 4'' within) means that they are in fact, non valid target. When they initiative steps come, they will be able to do their 3'' pile in move, getting within 2'' of the engaged models, which will make them engaged in turn and allow them to strike.

Note that if there are no boys left in b2b contact there will be no one to be engaged with after you make your 3" pile in move and the combat will end immediately.

I'm not sure it's that easy?

My understanding is that after my 3'' pile in, I'd get no attack obviously, but then they'd be a second 'end of combat pile in', and only if that pile in ends up with nobody in B2B does combat end.... and since that's a 6'' gap, it's pretty unlikely to happen.

I must say I like your way better, as it means properly placing my boyz can means that the other killing 4-5 of em in a charge means I'm not locked in combat and can then charge them the next turn, but I highly doubt it's that easy .

No - if, at the end of an I step Pile In there are no models in b2b, the combat ends.

Wait for real 0_o?

So considering the Boyz lack of a save... it's quite possible to lose the 7 to 10 guys 'in front' and thus break out of combat when you get assaulted? That's crazy.

Tarkand wrote:Wait for real 0_o?

So considering the Boyz lack of a save... it's quite possible to lose the 7 to 10 guys 'in front' and thus break out of combat when you get assaulted? That's crazy.

For real, indeed. So, if you use this combination of rules to avoid a challenge, you risk forfeiting all of your attacks, not just those of your Nob. Which might not be a bad thing, since it'll allow you to consolidate, shoot the enemy and then get the charge off yourself.

Doubly so.

Like most ork players, I would remove casualities from the back when being charged (der) during 5edition.

I would often lose 5... 7... hell, even 10 boyz to the initial onslaught. Than I'd get to return my puny S3 attack and hope to god my power klaw decided not to whif. Than I'd lose another 7 or so boyz from fearless wound. Being charged by even a remotely competent melee unit was a death knell for boyz.

Now tho... if I remove those guy from the front, instead of being locked in a fight with S3, I get to charge the next turn... And there's no fearless wound anymore 0_o.

On top of that, overwatch is really favorable to orks (30 Slugga shot at BS1 is deadlier than 20 Bolter shot at BS1... let alone Shootas) so the snapfire trade between me and my opponent is likely to advantage me.

This open up a lot of possibilities. Will have to do some maths and try it out to see how it works.

Another thing to consider in all this, page 51 tells us that we may strike with whatever weapon we choose to fight with. If you are against an Imperial Guard commissar with a power fist, chose to strike with your slugga (it's a pistol, so it also functions as a close combat weapon) so you go at Initiative 3, and still have a good chance to kill said commissar. Gone are the days of being forced to strike with a special weapon your character is toting around.

Good tactical tip and good rule change!

DarbNilbirts wrote: So in your turn you could just not issue a challenge and you would get 2 assault rounds of effectiveness, but after that you can get called in again.

That would actually just be the first round of attacks you can escape from challenge, both the attacking and the defending players can issue challenges.


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Cheexsta wrote:

Tarkand wrote:Wait for real 0_o?

So considering the Boyz lack of a save... it's quite possible to lose the 7 to 10 guys 'in front' and thus break out of combat when you get assaulted? That's crazy.

For real, indeed. So, if you use this combination of rules to avoid a challenge, you risk forfeiting all of your attacks, not just those of your Nob. Which might not be a bad thing, since it'll allow you to consolidate, shoot the enemy and then get the charge off yourself.

How would it allow you to consolidate?, from reading the BRB, if no models get on btb with the pile in moves it says the combat ends and follow the determine the assault result, it doesn't let you just be free to act after being massacred by another unit. Checking the assault result which you probably lost if there were no more models btb is just a morale test, so if they pass it they stay in close combat, if they fail they fall back and are subject to a sweeping advance

Lord Yayula wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:

Tarkand wrote:Wait for real 0_o?

So considering the Boyz lack of a save... it's quite possible to lose the 7 to 10 guys 'in front' and thus break out of combat when you get assaulted? That's crazy.

For real, indeed. So, if you use this combination of rules to avoid a challenge, you risk forfeiting all of your attacks, not just those of your Nob. Which might not be a bad thing, since it'll allow you to consolidate, shoot the enemy and then get the charge off yourself.

How would it allow you to consolidate?, from reading the BRB, if no models get on btb with the pile in moves it says the combat ends and follow the determine the assault result, it doesn't let you just be free to act after being massacred by another unit. Checking the assault result which you probably lost if there were no more models btb is just a morale test, so if they pass it they stay in close combat, if they fail they fall back and are subject to a sweeping advance

This.