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So its been brought to my attention that in the chaos space marines faq they say that anything with wings counts as "jump" so our daemon princes wouldn't count as flying MC. But in the recent white dwarf in the chaos batrep they take a lord and a daemon prince as chaos HQs then The Great Unclean one as the allied compulsory HQ. In this Batrep they use the Daemon prince as if he was a flying monstrous creature using the new special rules. So I'm just wondering what the Dakka community has to say about this and maybe we can get a general consensus on the issue.

Thanks in advanced guys!

-Jay

jasonswain1000 wrote:So its been brought to my attention that in the chaos space marines faq they say that anything with wings counts as "jump" so our daemon princes wouldn't count as flying MC. But in the recent white dwarf in the chaos batrep they take a lord and a daemon prince as chaos HQs then The Great Unclean one as the allied compulsory HQ. In this Batrep they use the Daemon prince as if he was a flying monstrous creature using the new special rules. So I'm just wondering what the Dakka community has to say about this and maybe we can get a general consensus on the issue.

Thanks in advanced guys!

-Jay

Got your back bro, here's the WD article



The Demon prince is taken from the Chaos Space Marines Codex, not as part of the Chaos Daemons Allies contingent.

Battle Reports are not RAW (Vector Strikes are actually D3+1 hits, for example). They can provide useful insights on how to deal with some situations, but in this case the rules are clear: CSM Daemon Princes are not FMCs.

That said, it may well be an oversight. I can imagine that some things might slip under the radar during a big edition shift like this, so it might get fixed in the next round of FAQs.

Alternatively, since the new Chaos codex is rumoured to be out in August, it might also be that they were actually using (at least some) rules from the new Chaos codex for that battle. It wouldn't be the first time - a few months before the Tyranid codex came out, Phil Kelly's army was mentioned in a campaign report where his opponents just so happened to be nice enough to let him use a Trygon in his games...

Cheexsta wrote:Battle Reports are not RAW (Vector Strikes are actually D3+1 hits, for example). They can provide useful insights on how to deal with some situations, but in this case the rules are clear: CSM Daemon Princes are not FMCs.

That said, it may well be an oversight. I can imagine that some things might slip under the radar during a big edition shift like this, so it might get fixed in the next round of FAQs.

Alternatively, since the new Chaos codex is rumoured to be out in August, it might also be that they were actually using (at least some) rules from the new Chaos codex for that battle. It wouldn't be the first time - a few months before the Tyranid codex came out, Phil Kelly's army was mentioned in a campaign report where his opponents just so happened to be nice enough to let him use a Trygon in his games...

It's frustrating, but I figured as much, it seems like we'll have to slog through an even harder time until our new codex comes out.

Thanks guys, as much as it sucks what you're saying makes sense looks like we'll have to wait and see what they do with this new codex le sigh...

So a Hive Tyrant with wings is also not a FMC? Wow, i think my 'nid playing friend is gonna cry.

but that presumably mean that a Jump MC gets all the bonuses that Jump infantry do (Hammer of Wrath - free I10 hit)?

Praxiss wrote:So a Hive Tyrant with wings is also not a FMC? Wow, i think my 'nid playing friend is gonna cry.

but that presumably mean that a Jump MC gets all the bonuses that Jump infantry do (Hammer of Wrath - free I10 hit)?

Even non-flying Monstrous Creatures have the Hammer of Wrath rule.

Hive Tyrants with Wings are FMC I'm pretty sure. Look in the FAQ to confirm one way or another.

Chrysis wrote:Hive Tyrants with Wings are FMC I'm pretty sure. Look in the FAQ to confirm one way or another.

yes FAQ read Biomorph Upgrades Wings very last amendment

WHAT. THE. feth.? Daemon prince is monstrous creature. Wings make monstrous creature fly. How is this not a flying monstrous creature? I'm going to attempt to play my winged daemon prince as a flying monstrous creature, and if my opponent argues with me I'll point to the rule that says "if you and your opponent can not agree on a rule, roll a dice and on 1-3 one of you is right, on 4-6 the other is right" So I'll be able to play it as a flying monstrous creature at least half the time, because people might not argue with me to begin with.

That would be called cheating as the Chaos Space Marine FAQ clearly makes a distinction that anything with wings is jump <unit type>. Now compare that to the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says any MC with Daemonic Flight is a flying monstrous creature.

It's weird that CSM daemon princes are jump MCs but the FAQ is very clear they are not flying MCs.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:That would be called cheating as the Chaos Space Marine FAQ clearly makes a distinction that anything with wings is jump <unit type>. Now compare that to the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says any MC with Daemonic Flight is a flying monstrous creature.

It's weird that CSM daemon princes are jump MCs but the FAQ is very clear they are not flying MCs.

Well, you're entitled to your interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine. Oh well, agree to disagree. Let's roll off and see if I get to use my flying monstrous creature as I think I am able to.

Fair enough. I think all me Power Axes should be Ap1 and hit at normal initiaive. Lets roll off to see if i'm right.

Phragonist wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:That would be called cheating as the Chaos Space Marine FAQ clearly makes a distinction that anything with wings is jump <unit type>. Now compare that to the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says any MC with Daemonic Flight is a flying monstrous creature.

It's weird that CSM daemon princes are jump MCs but the FAQ is very clear they are not flying MCs.

Well, you're entitled to your interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine. Oh well, agree to disagree. Let's roll off and see if I get to use my flying monstrous creature as I think I am able to.

So by your logic I could declare that my opponent auto loses the game(that's my interpretation) and they have 50% chance of just outright losing?

There's a difference between a legitimate rule argument and wanting something you don't have, if you want flying MCs take a Daemons detachment.

Phragonist wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:That would be called cheating as the Chaos Space Marine FAQ clearly makes a distinction that anything with wings is jump <unit type>. Now compare that to the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says any MC with Daemonic Flight is a flying monstrous creature.

It's weird that CSM daemon princes are jump MCs but the FAQ is very clear they are not flying MCs.

Well, you're entitled to your interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine. Oh well, agree to disagree. Let's roll off and see if I get to use my flying monstrous creature as I think I am able to.

You lose the game on a 1+ roll. You dont agree? Roll off!

See how silly an "argument" that is, and how against the tenets of this forum this is?

Blowing everything way the hell out of proportion aside .. This seems to be an oversight in the English translation. Apparently in several other languages it states that DPs or all Daemon MCs become Flying MCs once they take on flight or wings..

Another forum's thread talks about this: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22857

Unfortunately, in the CSM codex itself, it states that wings cause the user to use the rules of Jump Infantry, while in other Dex's they are labeled as some sort of "Flight". But that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't intended to be, and in fact, actually FAQ'd, but translated wrong. It doesn't mean it was either.

As well, my argument is that if it was true that Wings alone don't make a MC a FMC then there would be so few of that unit type in existence (for now, til new codices) that, well, why bother?

In short, I think GW got sloppy .. I'd like to believe that DPs get FMC when they take wings, but I also feel that this may be a tad overpowered, especially considering they've technically been buffed already.. The best thing to do is wait a couple months for the new Dex...

Ofc, I'd love to hear more debate on why or why not this is the case in the meantime. Using vector strike and 24" movements would be pretty bangin for my army ;P

The problem is Beerfiend, that they put out the Chaos Marines FAQ that clearly states that DPs with wings are Jump Monstrous Creatures, where as for others like Tyranids they FAQd them to be Flying MCs.

Basically Chaos Marines got the shaft on that one

Beerfiend wrote:This seems to be an oversight in the English translation. Apparently in several other languages it states that DPs or all Daemon MCs become Flying MCs once they take on flight or wings.

You do know that the rules are written in English and then translated into the other languages? You can't have a 'translation error' in the original document because it was never translated from another language.

I think it can more safely be attributed to: "They get a new codex in a month anyway, don't waste time on it."

Ghaz wrote:

Beerfiend wrote:This seems to be an oversight in the English translation. Apparently in several other languages it states that DPs or all Daemon MCs become Flying MCs once they take on flight or wings.

You do know that the rules are written in English and then translated into the other languages? You can't have a 'translation error' in the original document because it was never translated from another language.

Perhaps then it was translated to what it should be correctly from a sloppy original ;P

An oversight is still an oversight. I'm not saying that, that's what it is 100% .. but it seems obvious to a lot of people that this is the case.

Kiredor wrote:The problem is Beerfiend, that they put out the Chaos Marines FAQ that clearly states that DPs with wings are Jump Monstrous Creatures, where as for others like Tyranids they FAQd them to be Flying MCs.

Basically Chaos Marines got the shaft on that one

Yea I agree, CSM got shafted. And unfortunately there's nothing we can do until GW confirms it one way or the other .. or the new Dex comes out.

Chrysis wrote:I think it can more safely be attributed to: "They get a new codex in a month anyway, don't waste time on it."

So true =/

Phragonist wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:That would be called cheating as the Chaos Space Marine FAQ clearly makes a distinction that anything with wings is jump <unit type>. Now compare that to the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says any MC with Daemonic Flight is a flying monstrous creature.

It's weird that CSM daemon princes are jump MCs but the FAQ is very clear they are not flying MCs.

Well, you're entitled to your interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine. Oh well, agree to disagree. Let's roll off and see if I get to use my flying monstrous creature as I think I am able to.

Wow...just...wow.

It's probably because wings for CSM DPs are a third the cost to wings on CD DPs.

I'm assuming that the 20 point wings for CSM princes was outweighed by the 60 points wings for Demons, but it could just be an oversight I suppose.

I'm really hoping that when the new CSM book comes out, they will indeed have the FMC abilities (as well as mesh well together)

Does this mean that DP with wings cannot be subject to JOTWW anymore? For example are they static MC moving with the Jump infantry rules, or jumping monstrous creatures?

They are Jump (Unit Type)

so Jump Monstrous Creatures.