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During a1500 point 5th edition tournament /midnight party I was in for the new edition I went against a gk player with one of those very difficult to kill paladin squads with draigo.
I had 40 orks in 2 battlewagons, 12 in a trukk and 8 nobs with 3 clawsand a painboy in their, during my secound turn I disembarked everything and charged 40 boys and 8 nobs along with ghazgkull into that squad ( trukk boys wiffed on difficult terrain test), the 38 boys and 5 non-powerclaw nobs managed to do one wound between them due to that dang fnp from the priest, then the 5 nobs with claws and ghazgkull killed 4 or 5 of them, after all fearless saves and paladin attacks, most nobs had one wound and I had 8 boys left due to those damm fearless saves next turn I managed to kill the rest of the paladins but lost both squads of boys and a few nobs, draigo got away, then assulteed my nobs who then spent 2 turns with ghazhkull and finished him off., so yeah it took just about my entire army but I managed to kil that blasted of a unit, I came out as best general in the tournament, first time woot!

There are no more Fearless wounds. They're gone.

I know im so happy , and a lot of paladin weapons are not ap 2, so hello meganobs vs paladins

Heaven help you if there's a libby in that paladin unit and the apothecary means they get a 2+ then FNP for each wound you cause. They're still hella-hard to kill.

Yeah, Meganobz will probably wreck paladin now.

They actually have no AP2 melee weapon. All nemesis force weapon count as unusual force weapon, meaning they have Ap3 + whatever special rule... even the Daemon Hammer is only ap3 (although it still double their STR).

So you get your full 2+ save... They hit you on 3+ and they get to choose between wounding you on 3+, but not causing ID or wounding you on 4+ and causing ID... but your 2+ save is effectively defanging them. Effectively, on the charge, a squad of 5 paladin using their nemesis force weapon to do instant death (so attack at S4) while do 5 wound mathematically... this means you should lose no nobz at all, baring bad luck.

Meanwhile, when it's your time to hit, you hit on 4+, wound on 2+, Instant Death them. You also have more base attack. Granted, they have an Inv Save... but on the charge, assuming you lost 1 Nobz (which is not likely, as the math above doesn't look good and already assumed the pld were getting +1a from a charge, which they won't if they get charged) - you should kill 3 paladin, and that is assuming they all have a 4+ inv save... if any of them have a hammer or halberd, they will lose even more guys.

So basically, 5 meganobz vs 5 paladin ends up with the Nobz winning by 3. And the MANZ cost a much less in point.

cant wait to get meganobs, im praying for a plastic kit for them

The thing about Meganobz that you must remember is that they don't have a ranged option -- Paladins do, and it's a good one. If the GK player is competent, they'll do their best to keep your MANz at arm's length and pepper them with psycannons.

Additionally, a Paladin is a straight up better fighter than a Meganob, so if he's wielding a hammer, he'll at least draw, if not come out on top.

Additionally, since every Paladin (in addition to Draigo) is a character, meaning they can Challenge in CC, you can't always rely on a single powerful model (ie, Ghazzy) to clean up for you, especially if it's the Paladins' turn (since they get to issue any challenges first). A good player will use their ability to challenge to redirect your most dangerous threat on to a single model, minimizing the damage. If they go in with a force stave, then they're effectively taking that model out of the game (unless Nobz/Meganobz are also characters... not sure about that). If you're using Ghaz, that's their go-to method to nullify the use of the invulnerable save he gets from his Waaagh!

Paladins are easily the strongest beatstick in the game. If you're dead-set on fighting them head-to-head, expect to take some very heavy losses in the process. You can't afford to make mistakes. Paladins may be nearly immobile and easy to outmaneuver, but once they get just a bit of ground, they'll keep pushing it forward without much able to stop them.

First off, you'll either need to get Draigo away from the Paladins, or make a plan to deal with him.
Draigo is one of the most reslient and outright powerful characters in the game. He's been weakened by his weapon becoming AP3, but he's still a great fighter, and with a unit of Paladins, he makes a great wall for them, as they can LOS any instant death wounds to him and his fantastic 3++.

You can't rely on challenges to remove him, since any Paladin is a character, and can thus accept in his place.

So how do you deal with this guy?
One thing to keep in mind is that Paladins have terrible mobility. Their transport options are extremely limited (especially since it denies them their firepower and access to numbers, two things that make Paladinstars so efficient at doing what they do in the first place), and it's definitely not rare to find them footslogging along. You can take advantage of this in objective based games by dominating the map. If you manage to cover as many objectives as possible, at some point in the game, the GK player will likely be forced to break Draigo off from his unit in order to clean up an objective/gain map control. At this point, you probably won't be able to kill Draigo, and once he gets where he wants to go, he'll clean the place out pretty effectively, but what's most important is that he'll be away from his Paladin buddies.

At this point, it's (relatively) safe to strike. Getting the charge is important, since it gives you a bit of control that you'll desperately need to come out on top.

(note that the below assumes that Nobz/Meganobz ARE characters. If Nobz are characters, and MANz aren't, use nobz. Vice-versa if the reverse is true. If neither is the case, you'll want to have an additional independent character attached to the squad to make/accept challenges)

If Ghaz (or any independent character) (FYI, call your Waaagh for this charge, you want that 2++ REALLY badly) is in the unit, you'll want to issue a challenge, but make sure that this challenge is not by Ghaz. Make it come from a normal Nob in the squad. Preferably an expendable one. This challenge is just there to remove the GK player's ability to issue their own.

With that out of the way, Ghazzy is free to get in and do as much damage as possible, while his Nobz/Meganobz are free to LOS as much damage as possible on to him and his 2++ save to tank for the unit.

LOS everything you possibly can onto Ghaz. His EW and 2++ will alow him to shrug it off with ease. If possible, get Ghaz in base contact with as many enemy models as possible. This not only allows you to allocate to him without risking a 4+ LOS roll, but ensures he gets all of his attacks in, and that he can throw around as many S10 wounds as possible. The idea here is to basically survive as much as possible, so that you can hit right back with ID powerklaw attacks.

Alternatively, if the GK player won't remove Draigo from his Paladins, then you've already won. Spread around and cover as many objectives as possible.

Tarkand wrote:Yeah, Meganobz will probably wreck paladin now.

They actually have no AP2 melee weapon. All nemesis force weapon count as unusual force weapon, meaning they have Ap3 + whatever special rule... even the Daemon Hammer is only ap3 (although it still double their STR).

So you get your full 2+ save... They hit you on 3+ and they get to choose between wounding you on 3+, but not causing ID or wounding you on 4+ and causing ID... but your 2+ save is effectively defanging them. Effectively, on the charge, a squad of 5 paladin using their nemesis force weapon to do instant death (so attack at S4) while do 5 wound mathematically... this means you should lose no nobz at all, baring bad luck.

Meanwhile, when it's your time to hit, you hit on 4+, wound on 2+, Instant Death them. You also have more base attack. Granted, they have an Inv Save... but on the charge, assuming you lost 1 Nobz (which is not likely, as the math above doesn't look good and already assumed the pld were getting +1a from a charge, which they won't if they get charged) - you should kill 3 paladin, and that is assuming they all have a 4+ inv save... if any of them have a hammer or halberd, they will lose even more guys.

So basically, 5 meganobz vs 5 paladin ends up with the Nobz winning by 3. And the MANZ cost a much less in point.

Actually they aren't unusual. The halberds count as axes and warding staves as staves. Says so in the BRB.

Tarkand wrote:Yeah, Meganobz will probably wreck paladin now.

They actually have no AP2 melee weapon. All nemesis force weapon count as unusual force weapon, meaning they have Ap3 + whatever special rule... even the Daemon Hammer is only ap3 (although it still double their STR).

Incorrect, the Daemon Hammer is AP2. Read the entry for Unusual Force Weapons in the Rulebook, and then read the entry for the Daemon Hammer in the GK codex. The "unusual force weapon" rule doesn't overwrite any of the rules mentioned in the weapon's own entry, and giving it AP3 doesn't magically take away its AP2 either.

mch21689 wrote:Actually they aren't unusual. The halberds count as axes and warding staves as staves. Says so in the BRB.

No they don't, read the GK FAQ. Halberds and Staves are unusual force weapons, and are thus AP3 with the modifiers stated in the codex, sadly.

Fafnir wrote:

Tarkand wrote:Yeah, Meganobz will probably wreck paladin now.

They actually have no AP2 melee weapon. All nemesis force weapon count as unusual force weapon, meaning they have Ap3 + whatever special rule... even the Daemon Hammer is only ap3 (although it still double their STR).

Incorrect, the Daemon Hammer is AP2. Read the entry for Unusual Force Weapons in the Rulebook, and then read the entry for the Daemon Hammer in the GK codex. The "unusual force weapon" rule doesn't overwrite any of the rules mentioned in the weapon's own entry, and giving it AP3 doesn't magically take away its AP2 either.

mch21689 wrote:Actually they aren't unusual. The halberds count as axes and warding staves as staves. Says so in the BRB.

No they don't, read the GK FAQ. Halberds and Staves are unusual force weapons, and are thus AP3 with the modifiers stated in the codex, sadly.

Ah havent gotten through FAQ yet, which is nice then cause BRB says "axes and halberds" count as power axe. Dumb that halbers would be Str 6 but Int 3.....

Daemonhammers and Doomfists are AP2 however, because they use the rules for Thunderhammers and DCCWs in addition to being Force Weapons. They are not AP3.

Yeah, Halberds are I6, AP3.

Daemon hammers are I1, AP2, Double Strength.

Grey Templar wrote:Daemonhammers and Doomfists are AP2 however, because they use the rules for Thunderhammers and DCCWs in addition to being Force Weapons. They are not AP3.

Well, they are AP3. They're just also AP2.

It's entirely trivial, but when something comes along that invalidates AP2 while somehow not touching AP3, you'll be happy!

Fafnir wrote:
So how do you deal with this guy?

Again, with Meganobz.

Regardless tho, Paladin usually only carry 1 hammer per squad. 12 force weapon attack means 4 wounds, which should be saved easily. The Hammer strike at the same time as the Klaw and should mathematically kill 2 Nobz... while the Nobz kill 3 Paladin. And that is assuming the Paladin get the charge, it's even uglier if they don't.

Also... why do you need your Waagh with Ghaz when fighting Paladin exactly? The only one with AP2 is the hammer now. Ghaz can afford to take 1 or 2 wound. In fact, his entire Waaagh is kinda meh now unless he's going to duel Mephiston or some other very specific fight.

Meganobz are not characters, so they cannot accept/refuse challenge, meaning the paladin can't hide behind Draigo's skirt.

See, one of the thing you have to remember here is that while Meganobz are slower and they don't shoot as good... they are also much cheaper. 4 paladin +1 apo and nothing else is 350 points... 5 Meganobz is 200.

You are right that Paladin are better shooters, and it was my mistake to assume that Hammer were also ap3. They are also slow, a good player can try and avoid them or whittle down with fire and so forth. They are way around them, they are not an auto-win button... but if they get in CC with the paladin, the paladin will get a trashing (even if they win, it will hurt) by squad worth about half their points and when you combine that with the fact that wound allocation is nowhere near as abusable as it used to be - they are nowhere near as dangerous as they used to be in V5.

Edit: Heck, even the good old AoBR tactical terminator squad can now give the Paladin a run for their money in a CC fight. I don't think the impact of nemesis force weapon being ap3 has really hit home yet.

so this was my idea when I fight them
have them go against 2 squads of 20 boyz each with a claw, and a unit of 5 meganobs and a warboss with mega armor, the meganobs and boss are on a paladin on one side while the boys are in contact with most the others, so the paladins have to go mostly against boys who are fearless until they get 10 wounds on them, they most likely wont do more then a wound, from what ive seen, but that doesnt matter since the mega nobs and warboss and nobs will chew through them, sound good?, or maybe I should have the meganobbs in base contact since they can have their 2+ save against most weapons, what do you think?

Just charge the Meganobs into the fight straight up. Everything that isn't a hammer will bounce off your 2+ armor and then your PKs go at the same time as the Hammers.

5 Meganobs will kill at least 4 Paladins(assuming they all went on guys with swords, it'd be more like 6 if they don't have swords)

Lets be generous and assume 2 Hammers. thats going to kill 2 Nobs.

The Warboss will kill another paladin himself.

So the Orks win combat by 6.


Of course there is the caveat that if you do fail any of your 2+ saves against his Swords/staves/halberds you will lose a nob for each failure.

Fluff-wise the massed AP3 Force Weapons make perfect sense for GKs. The Chapter was created to take on Daemons and Chaos...with the majority of units having 3+ saves on various Chaos Marines or 5++ for Daemons. The Hammers being designed for your Daemon Princes and vehicles.
So GKs will still clean up your average MEQ. But Terminators will now be able to hold their own, needing only the 2+ to hold against Swords and Halbereds while the Hammers may only kill 1 or 2 termies. Then a swarm of PFs or THs kill off the GKs.
6th ed rules will make the Vulkan TH/SS unit a true monster even against Pallies. Able to stand far longer with a 2+ save, then using MC Hammers to insta-kill Pallies. Add a Libby casting Null Zone and that takes away alot of the luck factor of GKs rolling invuls.
You wany more fun? Add Lysander as a second HQ. To either spit from a unit for tank hunting or to issue challeges.
S10 Hammer, 2+3++ save, 4W, Eternal.

As for Allies, Marines and guard would be broken, only in that you take a cheap CCS (give them 4 meltas for tank/MC hunting), A meltaVet or Plasmavet squad for the same, then a Psyker Battle Squad to ensure you can nerf other units Ld and force a fall back.

Speaking of which...I did not see the rule in 6th that says if your falling back and a unit is within 6" of you you stay broken. If that is truly gone, then that nerfs the easiest way to deal with ghazzy (shoot his unit up until he has to take a Ld check, hit him with the PBS, then escort him off the board after he fails his Ld2 check).

Why are people assuming that Paladins will only be taking 1-2 hammers? This isn't 5th edition anymore, Paladins have every reason to be taking quite a few hammers with them now. New wound allocation, overall better resistance to enemy attacks, and the opportunity of AP2 makes thunder hammers much more viable even as standard weapons for the squad. Expect a competently built unit of Paladins to have at least 4-5 hammers.

Fafnir wrote:Why are people assuming that Paladins will only be taking 1-2 hammers? This isn't 5th edition anymore, Paladins have every reason to be taking quite a few hammers with them now. New wound allocation, overall better resistance to enemy attacks, and the opportunity of AP2 makes thunder hammers much more viable even as standard weapons for the squad. Expect a competently built unit of Paladins to have at least 4-5 hammers.

Math time... 5 Hammerladin charge the Meganobz. They score 8.3 wound.

The Meganobz strike back - after INV save, they score 4.4 wounds.

You just wasted 300pts to kill a 200 pts unit.

If the Mega Nobz charge, they still get whiped out, but this time so do the paladin... 200 vs 350 now.

As an ork player, that's a trade I'll gladly make

As if to add salt to the wound, Ghazkull now easily defeats Draigo in a challenge (Draigo deals 0.33 wound on average to Ghazkull, Ghazkull deals 0.69 wound to Draigo per turn... and yes, that's without using his Waaagh).

The question is, why would you ever have Draigo accept a charge from Ghaz? You send a Paladin with a stave against Ghaz so that Draigo can sit with the Paladins to absorb wounds from the Meganobz, effectively cutting the damage inflicted by the MANz to a third (assuming Draigo can get into combat with all the MANz, if not, you'll have to rely on a bit of LOS).

You wouldn't really, I just find the irony amazingly delicious

There's nothing ironic about it at all.

god a cant wait for plastic meganobs, im gonna convert some of my normal ones this week to use till they come out

Just wanted to mention something I noticed about Meganobz.

Mega-Armor gives the Slow and Purposeful special rule. In 5th edition, this rule slowed Meganobz down by forcing them to move as though they were in difficult terrain constantly.

In the 6th edition version of this special rule, that particular drawback has been removed from the Slow and Purposeful special rule, though it was added that they may no longer run.

Since FNP was mentioned, it also has been altered, removing the restriction regarding low AP weaponry (so now you can take a FNP save against power axes) but the restriction regarding Instant Death is still there (so you still can't take FNP on, say, a Warboss when struck by a S10 Hammerhanded Daemonhammer). Intestingly, you can take a FNP roll now against a S8 non-Hammerhanded Daemonhammer on your Warboss.

Tarkand wrote:Yeah, Meganobz will probably wreck paladin now.

They actually have no AP2 melee weapon. All nemesis force weapon count as unusual force weapon, meaning they have Ap3 + whatever special rule... even the Daemon Hammer is only ap3 (although it still double their STR).

Actually the Daemonhammer is AP2. Expect to see a lot of GK Termie Squads and Paladins to be carrying Daemonhammers with a Warding Stave. Also a character will be attached with a warding stave as well. So basically that will be two 2++ saves at the front of the squad and then a lot of AP2 Daemonhammer attacks.

The Daemonhammer is AP2 because our FAQ says that unless otherwise stated then our force weapons are AP3. Our codex though actually states that a Daemonhammer follows thr rules for a thunderhammer.

The thing about Meganobz that you must remember is that they don't have a ranged option

They have twin linked shoota's, why does everyone say they don't have ranged? They can even take Combi-Skorcha's (S5/AP4 template) Not as good compared to Psycannons, but hey it's still technically ranged.

Grey Templar wrote:Just charge the Meganobs into the fight straight up. Everything that isn't a hammer will bounce off your 2+ armor and then your PKs go at the same time as the Hammers.

5 Meganobs will kill at least 4 Paladins(assuming they all went on guys with swords, it'd be more like 6 if they don't have swords)

Lets be generous and assume 2 Hammers. thats going to kill 2 Nobs.

The Warboss will kill another paladin himself.

So the Orks win combat by 6.


Of course there is the caveat that if you do fail any of your 2+ saves against his Swords/staves/halberds you will lose a nob for each failure.

Actually I don't think its as simple as that. A unit with a warding stave with a IC attached also with a warding stave could be very resiliant due to the 2++, in addition to the 5++ termie armour save. With Paladins being characters then look out sir rolls can be used to direct wounds, so if Draigo is attached to the squad instead then you could be laughing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fafnir wrote:Why are people assuming that Paladins will only be taking 1-2 hammers? This isn't 5th edition anymore, Paladins have every reason to be taking quite a few hammers with them now. New wound allocation, overall better resistance to enemy attacks, and the opportunity of AP2 makes thunder hammers much more viable even as standard weapons for the squad. Expect a competently built unit of Paladins to have at least 4-5 hammers.

Thats what I will be doing. I am going to get some more Daemonhammers for my GKs. Here is the set-up I was thinking:

Grandmaster with Warding Stave
3 Paladins with Daemonhammers
1 Paladin with Warding Stave
1 Paladin with Banner
1 Narthecium
1 Psycannon

So 3 Daemonhammers with extra attacks coming from the banner and 2 warding staves in the unit to take the invulnerable saves. In saying that I think Draigo is a superb choice as well since he is eternal warrior with a 3++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tarkand wrote:
Math time... 5 Hammerladin charge the Meganobz. They score 8.3 wound.

ARe you taking into account hammerhand here or our force weapon abilities?

The Meganobz strike back - after INV save, they score 4.4 wounds.

Yes, but I still think a Warding Stave will be taking with most units of paladins.

You just wasted 300pts to kill a 200 pts unit.

Did we shoot you first with our psybolts and psycannons?

If the Mega Nobz charge, they still get whiped out, but this time so do the paladin... 200 vs 350 now.

Perhaps, depends on the exact options that are taken in each case.

As an ork player, that's a trade I'll gladly make

I'm sure it will be a bit more balanced in reality. You'll take a few wounds from shooting first.

As if to add salt to the wound, Ghazkull now easily defeats Draigo in a challenge (Draigo deals 0.33 wound on average to Ghazkull, Ghazkull deals 0.69 wound to Draigo per turn... and yes, that's without using his Waaagh).

I'll give you this.