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We were discussing the advent of Paladins now having character rules and how wound allocation would change in a tactics thread.

A greater problem occurred to me though, in regards to the presence of invulnerable save characters in general.

The rulebook states that in the case of a unit having the same save you allocate UNSAVED wounds to the squad. If it is mixed you go through a longer winding process.
However if a wound from a high AP weapon occurred it becomes more complicated.

Let's say Draigo and his Paladins get wounded by 2 melta shots and 6 bolter shots. In this scenario Draigo is closest.

To me it would seem that you would have to take the mixed route because of Draigo 3++ sv and Paladin 5++

However if the squad was wounded simply by 6 bolters you would only be allocating failed saves (1s).

Any thoughts on this or perhaps a better explanation would be great. This isn't just a Draigowing question though, it applies wherever a character has different additional saves.

Although, this is in the wrong forum, to answer your question, would allocation works thusly.
1. Roll to hit and wound against the unit's majority
2. Determine which model is closet to the firing unit
3. Allocate a single wound to this model, if it has any saves, attempt them now, if it fails/has no saves, deplete it's wound pool by the required amount, if this does not kill the model, continue allocating wounds until the model is killed.
4. Determine the next closest model to the firing unit and repeat the process until either the unit is dead or there are no more wounds left.
5. If multiple models are equidistant from the firing unit, randomly allocate wounds between them.

Krellnus wrote:Although, this is in the wrong forum, to answer your question, would allocation works thusly.
1. Roll to hit and wound against the unit's majority
2. Determine which model is closet to the firing unit
3. Allocate a single wound to this model, if it has any saves, attempt them now, if it fails/has no saves, deplete it's wound pool by the required amount, if this does not kill the model, continue allocating wounds until the model is killed.
4. Determine the next closest model to the firing unit and repeat the process until either the unit is dead or there are no more wounds left.
5. If multiple models are equidistant from the firing unit, randomly allocate wounds between them.

I believe the big question is can Draigo take 3++ ss saves, fail them, then dump the wound on a 5++ invo save regular paladin with los.

No. You take "Look Out, Sir!" rolls before you roll on Draigo's save.

So, it works like

Determine closest model.

If it's a character, decide to attempt "Look Out, sir!"

Allocate wound to a nearby model if the test passes, or to the character if it fails.

Roll their armor/invulnerable save.

If the save fails, take off a wound. If it kills the model, remove model, determine the next closest. If the save passes, repeat the process.

I'm pretty sure if a model passes LOS, it takes wounds until it dies in the characters stead. I'm not sure, though.

EDIT: Example:

Draigo's Paladin squad takes 10 bolter wounds.

Draigo is the closest model, and as such, you decide to take a "Look Out, Sir!" Roll for the wounds.

Rolling all 10 at the same time, you pass 8 of the "Look Out, Sir!", and fail 2. You roll 2 saves on Draigo, and the other 8 on any of the Paladins within 6".

Here's the funny thing, though. Draigo can make Look Out Sir rolls for all the bolter wounds, and put each one on a different paladin, while taking the melta shots himself. In this manner, Paladins can absolutely have each model take 1 wound before anyone takes another, while Draigo soaks all the melta shots.

It's not as cheesy as before, though, because if you allocate two bolter hits to one paladin, and he fails both, he DIES. You don't get to allocate wounds you rolled for him to someone else.

So, You'll have to roll your saves separately for every paladin that's look out siring. You'll probably even have to roll if they Look Out, Sir! Separately too.

What I'm saying is, when you pass Look Out Sir, you choose which model takes the wound, allowing you to ensure every paladin takes 1 wound before anyone takes a second.

lol damn it now there are two floating around on here.

Just ignore the other thread I guess, the only conclusion that we drew is that it is the 'Thrown save' that counts for difference. So if there were only bolters you would do allocation & LOS after failed saves (because all saves are 2+).

Anything AP2/1 changes it to allocation of wounds prior to saves and LOS.

A long version of my OP would go like this:

Opponent Squad fires, roll to hit, roll to wound

6 bolter wounds

I roll 6 saves (2+) failing 2

Draigo is closest so I roll 2 LOS (2+)

Both pass so I choose two wounds from anywhere in my paladin unit (6" of Draigo)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Opponent Squad fires, roll to hit, roll to wound

4 bolter wounds 2 melta wounds

I decide to forgo LOS for the melta wounds

I roll 2 saves (3++) passing both

Roll 4 LOS for bolters (2+) failing one, allocating the others

Roll 4 dice one at a time (2+) Draigo, PaladinA, PaladinB, PaladinC

PaladinB rolls a 1 and loses a wound.

I'm pretty sure that's how it goes, although the second one might an examination because I believe the opponent chooses what order wounds are resolved.

schadenfreude wrote:
I believe the big question is can Draigo take 3++ ss saves, fail them, then dump the wound on a 5++ invo save regular paladin with los.

No I don't think that is possible, although the cheese accusations would explode.

Crazyterran wrote:No. You take "Look Out, Sir!" rolls before you roll on Draigo's save.

So, it works like

Determine closest model.

If it's a character, decide to attempt "Look Out, sir!"

Allocate wound to a nearby model if the test passes, or to the character if it fails.

Roll their armor/invulnerable save.

If the save fails, take off a wound. If it kills the model, remove model, determine the next closest. If the save passes, repeat the process.

I'm pretty sure if a model passes LOS, it takes wounds until it dies in the characters stead. I'm not sure, though.

EDIT: Example:

Draigo's Paladin squad takes 10 bolter wounds.

Draigo is the closest model, and as such, you decide to take a "Look Out, Sir!" Roll for the wounds.

Rolling all 10 at the same time, you pass 8 of the "Look Out, Sir!", and fail 2. You roll 2 saves on Draigo, and the other 8 on any of the Paladins within 6".

Sorry, check the LOS rules, you take saves on the character, only if it is failed can you decide to LOS.

Krellnus wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:No. You take "Look Out, Sir!" rolls before you roll on Draigo's save.

So, it works like

Determine closest model.

If it's a character, decide to attempt "Look Out, sir!"

Allocate wound to a nearby model if the test passes, or to the character if it fails.

Roll their armor/invulnerable save.

If the save fails, take off a wound. If it kills the model, remove model, determine the next closest. If the save passes, repeat the process.

I'm pretty sure if a model passes LOS, it takes wounds until it dies in the characters stead. I'm not sure, though.

EDIT: Example:

Draigo's Paladin squad takes 10 bolter wounds.

Draigo is the closest model, and as such, you decide to take a "Look Out, Sir!" Roll for the wounds.

Rolling all 10 at the same time, you pass 8 of the "Look Out, Sir!", and fail 2. You roll 2 saves on Draigo, and the other 8 on any of the Paladins within 6".

Sorry, check the LOS rules, you take saves on the character, only if it is failed can you decide to LOS.

Read everyone elses post in the thread telling you you are wrong.

If it's all of the same armor save (so, with the Draigo example, everyone has a 2+ normal save) so, bolter rounds may be allocated after the paladins fail an armor save.

However, when it comes to Invulnerable saves, like with Melta Gun shots, wounds are allocated BEFORE saves are taken, as under page 15. Since wound allocation comes before saving throws, you must determine whether or not you are going to take a Look Out, Sir! Before Draigo takes his Storm Shield save, since the Invulnerable saves fall under the Mixed Saves rule. (Storm Shields having a 3++ save, where as the Paladins have a 5++)

So, with Mixed Saves, Look Out, Sir! occurs before saves are rolled. With Same Saves, Look Out, Sir! Occurs after saves are rolled.

To be perfectly clear, all of it happens whenever Wound Allocation occurs:

Same Save allocation is AFTER saving throws are rolled.

Mixed Save allocation is BEFORE saving throws are rolled.

As such:

Same Save Look Out, Sir! happens AFTER saves are failed.

Mixed Save Look Out, Sir! Happens BEFORE saves are failed.

Do you understand?

Crazyterran wrote:
Same Save allocation is AFTER saving throws are rolled.

Mixed Save allocation is BEFORE saving throws are rolled.

Good looks like we're getting a consensus here.
What's your thought on allocation in general? Because according to the book the opponent can allocate the shots in what ever order he wants, so does that mean he can be a pain and make you do every bolter shot one by one as opposed to the quicker version I put here?

Opponent Squad fires, roll to hit, roll to wound

4 bolter wounds 2 melta wounds

I decide to forgo LOS for the melta wounds

I roll 2 saves (3++) passing both

Roll 4 LOS for bolters (2+) failing one, allocating the others

Roll 4 dice one at a time (2+) Draigo, PaladinA, PaladinB, PaladinC

PaladinB rolls a 1 and loses a wound

Maige wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
Same Save allocation is AFTER saving throws are rolled.

Mixed Save allocation is BEFORE saving throws are rolled.

Good looks like we're getting a consensus here.
What's your thought on allocation in general? Because according to the book the opponent can allocate the shots in what ever order he wants, so does that mean he can be a pain and make you do every bolter shot one by one as opposed to the quicker version I put here?

Opponent Squad fires, roll to hit, roll to wound

4 bolter wounds 2 melta wounds

I decide to forgo LOS for the melta wounds

I roll 2 saves (3++) passing both

Roll 4 LOS for bolters (2+) failing one, allocating the others

Roll 4 dice one at a time (2+) Draigo, PaladinA, PaladinB, PaladinC

PaladinB rolls a 1 and loses a wound

No, since all of them share an armor save for the bolter shots, all saves must be taken at the same time. After the wounds occur, since they used the Same Save method of dealing with wounds, Draigo may take his Look Out, Sir! Saves, and any wounds are passed on to whatever paladin(s) he allocated them to.

Rolls 10 saved, 4 failed.

Draigo is the closest, so roll 4 individual "Look Out, Sir!" rolls are rolled. (on different models, im assuming, since, regardless, if the model dies making the Look Out, Sir! save, he is removed and another model takes his place. On Paladins, it has the happy effect of Wound Allocation shenanigans.)

Ah, I was looking at it as a dichotomy.

If saves are identical then method A for all wounds
If there are mixed saves then method B for all wounds

It makes sense to me at least, this would also mean that if Draigo were to die (or whatever character in a similar scenario) it would revert back to the simple method for the remaining wounds in the 'wound pool'.