Killla Kans in 6th?

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**DrDuckman**

Given that Killa Kans can no longer be used for a Kan wall, will you continue using your Kans come 6th?

The only reason to keep them seems to be dealing with terminators, with KMBs and the DCCW. However, Meganobs now do this much better, since they are mostly immune to power weapons.

Any uses you can think of? Come to think of if, the Deffkoptas, another signature unit in the Kan Wall, is much less scary now that we cannot assault out of Outflanking.
I am thinking that I'll just take them in groups of 2-3 now, with just Rokkits.

**Ghenghis Jon**

So in the last 8 hours have you bought a rulebook and/or played a match with the Kan Wall? If so, please tell us about it. If not, please stop making deluded statements. This is the second thread in which you have nay-sayed the Kan Wall with no practical explanation, evidence, or experience to back up your statement.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459019.page

**scimitar**

I'm not liking the chance of Kans in close combat against Krak grenades hitting on a 3+ with higher initiative. A unit of vets have a good probability of wrecking the kan before he can strike back. On the other hand, Kans mighty 2 initiative makes them one of the incredibly rare units capable of striking first against terminators and still getting through their armor. They are not what they used to be, but still have some useful properties.

**Kevlar**

scimitar wrote:On the other hand, Kans mighty 2 initiative makes them one of the incredibly rare units capable of striking first against terminators and still getting through their armor. They are not what they used to be, but still have some useful properties.

Its still going to be tough to punch through storm shields.

**sudojoe**

I'll likely still use the kans as the BS3 helps alot. I also have grown to love the 6 grotzooka templates and all those TL rockets that actually have a good shot at killing other tanks. Now with immobilization giving me a new unit, I actually still like them.

In all honesty though, the dakka jets are going to be competing for points alot more for me as well as actually using arty. Dropping my buggies/deafkoptas for them, and likely just keep one squad of kans with rockets and another with grotzookas. I'm just kind of bummed about my boyz squads. Might go with 2 groups of 30 shoota boyz to overwatch craziness and a grot squad to camp instead of the 20 packs of boys I've been using.

With improved arty shooting, I'll likely drop a loota group as well as my kommandos to pay for a meganob squad. Getting them into combat is going to be difficult though. gonna go with one mek and a warboss / gaz I think.

**WarOne**

An article from the DCM forums by yakface on this particular build:

yakface wrote:
Oh, and so I obviously played my first game of 6th edition tonight and unfortunately as I feared: RIP the Ork Kan wall for this edition.

I played 1,500 points and my opponent had anything but a shooty list: It was all Nurlge foot list; only 2 Reaper Autocannons, 3 Oblits, 2 Plasmaguns and 2 Meltas in the whole entire army, and even then by the end of the game I had lost my Battlewagon, 2 Dreads & 3 Kans, even with me having 2 Big Meks with KFF. And he even rolled pretty badly with the Oblits the whole game.

God knows how bad a pure shooting army would decimate the Kan Wall in a single turn. The only thing that saved me was that night fighting descended on turn 5 and that Stealth & Shrouding combine with the KFF cover save in an amazing way (so I pulled out a tie).

But here's why this army style is done:

• While KFF provides a cover save to any Ork unit that has a model within 6", when it comes to vehicles, it only obscures the actual vehicles within 6", so that means only the Kans within 6" of the field get the cover save (blegh).
• Squadrons no longer ignore Stunning and there's no way you can ever afford the 10 points per Kan to take Extra Armor, so now when one of your Kans in a Squadron gets stunned, you're just screwed for the turn. In fact, I'd usually rather the thing blows up or get immobilized, because at least then it wouldn't cripple the rest of the squadron for the turn!
• Obviously the KFF drop from 4+ to 5+ on vehicles is a huge bummer.
• Fixing Hull Points with your Meks is awesome, but as Kans only have 2 of them, its kind of tough to get to them before they're just dead, and it also I had been riding one of my Meks in the Battlewagon to extend the KFF range, but that means he's really unavailable to get out and fix damaged Kans and Dreads (without screwing everything up), so that really just relegates that Mek to fixing Hull Points on the Battlewagon (which is nice, don't get me wrong).
• Placement of the (non-Battlewagon) Mek in a boyz unit is now a challenge. I used to always place them right at the front to try to keep their field on as many Kans as possible, but now that makes them a target. Yes, the 2+ Look Out Sir rule helps that quite a bit, but it is still a pain to have to deal with).
• The new AP bonuses for AP1 & 2 and only having 2/3 Hull Points for Kans/Dreads just tears through them like paper. Based on my first game it feels like if they had just given every vehicle 1 or 2 more Hull Points it would have been about perfect.
• There's so many new ways for stuff to kill Kans...overwatch shots when you charge with the Kans, Krak grenades hitting in combat on base WS instead of an auto '6' to hit, immobilized in combat means back armor is hit.

With all that said, I think I will still continue to give it a try a few more times before calling it completely quits.

Remember that we are still raw on the rules and such, so we still need to play test this army against other builds and see how viable these are.

**General_Chaos**

I played a game last night with 2 units of Kanz. I had a Big Mek with KFF with a Grot Oiler stuck in a big unit of Shoota Boyz marching behind them. They pushed a flank so didn't take a ton of fire but they were getting shot by a couple lascannons every turn. I used the Mek to fix the "wounded" ones, while I had a "healthy" ones move ahead to take the next round of shooting. Then flip flopped as necessary. I crossed the entire board in three turns and only lost one Kan.

My thinking after that game was to do the same but run a unit of 15 Lootas with 3 of them being Meks instead of the Shoota Boyz. They could push up behind the Kanz, snap fire D3 shots and with 4 sets of Mek Tools they could fix just about anything. When I test it out I report how it did.

**PipeAlley**

General_Chaos wrote:I played a game last night with 2 units of Kanz. I had a Big Mek with KFF with a Grot Oiler stuck in a big unit of Shoota Boyz marching behind them. They pushed a flank so didn't take a ton of fire but they were getting shot by a couple lascannons every turn. I used the Mek to fix the "wounded" ones, while I had a "healthy" ones move ahead to take the next round of shooting. Then flip flopped as necessary. I crossed the entire board in three turns and only lost one Kan.

My thinking after that game was to do the same but run a unit of 15 Lootas with 3 of them being Meks instead of the Shoota Boyz. They could push up behind the Kanz, snap fire D3 shots and with 4 sets of Mek Tools they could fix just about anything. When I test it out I report how it did.

I was thinking of running a Burna Wagon with 12 Burna's + 3 Mekboyz with Rokkits to keep the wagon going. I completely forgot about Lootas having Meks. Please make sure to tell us how it gois.

Thanks!

**DrDuckman**

That seems pretty grim, especially since I don't particularly want to switch to a mech army. I had no idea that Kans only had 2 structure points, that is pretty bad. I guess keep them back and use them as artillery, or to try and take out termies?

And yeah, the competition between Deffkoptas and Dakkajets is also big, though I'll be using the koptas for now. Thankfully they are decent and much cheaper without the buzzsaws, so they might be worth running that way even now, especially with the slight boost skimmers got. It might even be worth still going green baron and hoping to get initiative..

I am thinking 3 of them outflanking with just rokkits should still be able to take out a tank or two, though perhaps not, given the new vehicle damage table.

Gah, half my models rendered useless, should have expected this.

**Ghenghis Jon**

If you take 4 Deffkoptas, even if you only have 1 left he can rally.

**Jidmah**

Unless they run off the table with 3d6 fallback and ld 7

**DrDuckman**

Well, honestly, unless you are running out of FOC slots there really is no reason to run the Deffkoptas in the same squad. You gain nothing.

**General_Chaos**

DrDuckman wrote:Well, honestly, unless you are running out of FOC slots there really is no reason to run the Deffkoptas in the same squad. You gain nothing.

Before I have always just ran them units of one but it's a different ball game now. With more Koptas you gain survivability and more firepower. The 7 leadership does suck but it's the most average roll your gunna get and now that you can regroup at 25% plus they don't get doubled out from strength 8, they can jink for a 5+ there's alot of benefits giving to jetbikes now

They really need re-examined in 6th edition. I ran two squad of two last night and they failed miserably. I will be testing out units of four with a combination of rokkits, shootas, and claws.

**DrDuckman**

Hmm, I think the meks following the kans is a good idea. Personally I dont think you even need the Lootas following, you'll probably still go for a big Mek or two for the KFF on the Boys, so you could actually keep repairing a kan every turn which helps.

Though the idea of running a large group of mecs and lootas behind the Kans is cool, especially since KMBs are so much more important now.

Generally I think that the main reason to bring Kans now is to kill terminators, which will be extremely common in 6th. The problem is that they compete with the Meganobs which are much better equipped to handle being shot and/or charged by most things now that PW do not get through 2+. That being said, with a KMB and the I2, as well as still needing to score 2 PF hits to kill them most of the time, Kans seem like they will still be slightly better at killing termies than mega nobs, even with their lesser WS and one less attack. Not sure I'd rather have 2 KMB Kans instead of a Deff dread though, which would do probably even better than meganobs against termies.

In fact, I think the Deff Dread got quite a bit of a boost now, as it's harder to stop(since glances can't stop you), easier to repair than a squad of Kans(your single KFF mech can keep it in top condition), and power claws that are I2 are huge now.

Finally, given how hidden klaws are now significantly weaker, and that it's easier to glance things to death with simple boys(as you hit vehicles on 3+ now even if they moved, getting 3-4 6s on the damage table to glance on back armor 10 with 20-30 boys is not hard at all), perhaps nobs are no longer essential on boys mobs that have a Mek/Warboss attached to them?

Being able to respond to a challenge with a nob instead of the precious IC is nice, but is it worth the 45 points? Especially since with the lack of Fearless wounds, boys are actually now even better in melee? The fact that ICs can now rally squads even after they hit 75% casualties makes me think that I can just give the bosspoles to my HQs, and skip on doubling up with PK nobs. This opens up some points for more boys and extras such as Big Shootas, which seem to be more practical now.

PS. I AM, at least, really excited to try out my lootas now, I think the 6th made them far better at popping vehicles, since they only need 3 glances to take out most things. Those rhinos will pop, and so will dreads et all. In fact, generally anything sort of a land raider beware. I am thinking we are going to see much bigger loota mobs now.

Comments? Opinions?

**General_Chaos**

I agree that Mega-Nobz is where it's at it seems at the moment but I have none. We need a new kit like right NOW

really tempted to do the Black Orc/ Mega-Nob conversion but I haven't seen a good conversion yet.

**DrDuckman**

Yeah, me too, particularly against GK, they would rip them apart.

But they are prohibitively expensive, hence why I am trying to figure out ways to make my existing units work. Besides, if you are gonna spend a lot of money on models, Dakkajets are probably a priority.

Soooo good.

**Jidmah**

Just reading into the books apendix, the Grotzooka is listed in my book as 18" S6 AP5 Heavy 2. Can anybody confirm that this is not a translation error?

**General_Chaos**

Jidmah wrote:Just reading into the books apendix, the Grotzooka is listed in my book as 18" S6 AP5 Heavy 2. Can anybody confirm that this is not a translation error?

hope it's a typo...

**GreyHamster**

Grotzooka's entry in the new BRB is identical to the codex, 18" S6 AP5 Heavy 2, Blast.

**Jidmah**

Uh, never mind then. Not enough sleep I guess.

**njpc**

It sadness me that my kanwall got tore to pieces in my last game. I run 2 units of Killa Kans behind the field. The fields decrease to 5+ did actually factor in greatly. I saved a few, but learned fast I need to basically "sacrifice a kan" to lead and get shot. Come combat, grenades actually glance kans more then I'd like to think they would.

Played a SM list with Thunderfire's, a few speeders, and 2 rifle dread. I tried to use my Wagon to draw fire, and even used trukks to pull out and block LOS at one point to the kans. That actually worked well using the trukk to block LOS, while the boys bailed out and ran to a cover feature. That did work nicely, as even when the trukk was "destroyed" it ramshackled and created mobile terrain.

It was rough, very disheartening, but i'm not giving up. The above idea of a small unit with meks mixed in might help, as if I could have fixed them, they wouldn't have been banged up and might have lost maybe 1-2 before then hit. Once in combat vs marines its not good as they have Krak grenades, and the glances add up fast.

I've begun to tinker with dropping the Kans, and just lead the mega armored nobs instead. The financial cost would be horrible to absorb at this stage, but my list can fit 6 for my Kan lay out, possible more if I really wanted. Adding Kombi Scorchas could prove fun with Snapfire d3 str 5 for anyone who wants to charge the unit OR just hosing fire on the way in.

**DrDuckman**

It would be really sad if we really had to drop the Kans completely, surely we can find a different use for them. For example, there is no reason for them to run forward anymore, so why not have them in the flanks, getting the mec's KFF effects without being in the fronts and getting shot? Use them as fire support and a second wave of melee instead of a vanguard? Though I suppose as the only vehicles in the list, they'll get shot up anyways.

The following them up with a squad of lootas is not a bad idea either, though it does cut down the Dakkagun firepower in half, you can give those meks some KMBs for extra firepower.

Other than that, yeeah, particularly the 1 BW 9 Kans list will not work, I'd say perhaps 6 Kans and a whole lot of foot sloggers is a better idea, hordes seem to have been boosted in 6th. You might also get more milage from you kans once start adding more and more terminators in the mix.

Otherwise we'll all have to give up the kans and go BW spam, which I'd hate, as it's a bit too similar to classic mech gameplay of all the marine armies, but with more models.

I have to say, MegaNobs sound good, but I wonder if they are not quite AS good as we'll expect, mostly because I forsee the metagame getting a lot of plasmas and AP2 weapons now, and the fact that meganobs dont really shoot back will hurt.

**Clang**

The problem with using kanz as support (instead of out in front) is their relatively short range weapons - they won't have as many targets to shoot at.

A full Kan Wall does seem less effective now, which is a shame. I'd better get back to finishing those BW and Loota conversions, I guess :(

**Jidmah**

DrDuckman wrote:It would be really sad if we really had to drop the Kans completely, surely we can find a different use for them. For example, there is no reason for them to run forward anymore, so why not have them in the flanks, getting the mec's KFF effects without being in the fronts and getting shot? Use them as fire support and a second wave of melee instead of a vanguard? Though I suppose as the only vehicles in the list, they'll get shot up anyways.

The following them up with a squad of lootas is not a bad idea either, though it does cut down the Dakkagun firepower in half, you can give those meks some KMBs for extra firepower.

Other than that, yeeah, particularly the 1 BW 9 Kans list will not work, I'd say perhaps 6 Kans and a whole lot of foot sloggers is a better idea, hordes seem to have been boosted in 6th. You might also get more milage from you kans once start adding more and more terminators in the mix.

Otherwise we'll all have to give up the kans and go BW spam, which I'd hate, as it's a bit too similar to classic mech gameplay of all the marine armies, but with more models.

I have to say, MegaNobs sound good, but I wonder if they are not quite AS good as we'll expect, mostly because I forsee the metagame getting a lot of plasmas and AP2 weapons now, and the fact that meganobs dont really shoot back will hurt.

If you run meks, you should run them with big shootaz. They are characters, so any roll of a 6 to hit will let you allocate wounds. More shots, more

.
They also don't kill themselves continuously. I don't think a rokkit on them is worth extra points, but your mileage may vary.