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the Necron FAQ changed the wording on MSS and, after reading a bit in the Tactics section, i thought i would bring it here for discussion!

i'm mostly confused about when it would be activated in relation to an issued challenge.

in the bgb, challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, but before any blows are struck. MSS also activate at the start of the Fight sub-phase, but they lost the "before blows" line that they have in the codex.

assuming that accepting and moving in to base-to-base are all done with the same conditions as issuing a challenge, when would you activate your Mindshackle Scarabs?

it sounds like the Challenge, having a more specific "timing" clause, would be resolved first, and then once both parties have been moved, you would roll for your Mindshackle Scarabs. but, honestly, i have no idea! do rules/actions in 40k have speed or priority over others? i'm more used to discussing this kind of thing for card games

I'd like to think it's Challenges than Scarabs, but I have nothing to backup either argument.

I think this might be up-in-the-air until FAQ'd.

Although, on my turn, anything that happens at the same time, I am allowed to determine the order things are resolved (it says that somewhere in the rulez, I'm at work so can't say where)

Here are the rules at play that I can see...

(pg. 64), Issuing a Challenge
"Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck..."

(pg. 20), Fight Sub-phase
1. Choose a Combat
2. Fight Close Combat
3. Determine Assault Results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-phase or Finish Assault Phase

(pg. 22), repeats the above in more detail over several pages

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420315a_Necron_6th_Ed_V1.pdf
(bottom of pg. 3 of 5)
"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, he inflicts D3 hits on his on unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack...."

Finally, note that Challenges can take place over multiple rounds of combat.

+ + + +

A literal reading of the rules might be that
=================================
Mindshackle Scarabs happens before you, "Choose a Combat" in the Fight Sub-phase, if it happens before you Choose a Combat.. well...
Challenges happen "At the start of the Fight Sub-phase, before blows are struck", which could be read as any time before the 2. Fight Close Combat step...
The comment in MSS errata could relate to rounds 2+ only

My gut feeling
===========
That Challenges should be issued first, then MSS should resolve. Unfortunately, that is not how the rules are written.
They should have wrote MSS better in the FAQ to say that it happens, "At the start of the Fight Sub-phase, before blows are struck and after Challenges have been accepted or denied."

This needs a further FAQ update.

thank you for the replies! hopefully things get squared when the bgb's inevitable FAQ comes out. but who knows how long that will take.

I love how they introduced a sub-phase to help with the timing of rules but still manage to leave it way too vague...

The only problem now is that if the mss user is in base contact with other models while in a challenge, you still ave to randomly select a model in base contact, not just the guy you are fighting in a challenge. This sucks to hell on destroyer lords as they have no inv save.

This actually came up in my game yesterday, my opponent seemed to recall that if there was a conflict of ability timing for his actions, he chose the order in which they resolve.

I recall this too, but cannot remember where I saw it. Was it in the old errata/faq?

Having said this, it almost is a better idea to challenge then mindshackle if your overlord is in base with the sergeant already. The reason being that by the wording of "declining a challenge" the model would not strike at all that turn if he backed off and the scarabs would do nothing.

There is the Exceptions rule on page 9.

This seems mainly for when both players want to do something at the exact same time the turn controlling player determines the order of the events.

Ill see if I can find anything else


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope, I can't find anything else in the rulebook for timing descrepancies.

My only recommendation would be to use the exceptions rule as a guide and the controlling player of the special rule "in this case the Necron Lord" would choose which order to use his Mindshackle Scarabs, before or after a challange.

Its not a perfect RAW answer but thats as close as I can find to something concrete

smUrfsrUs wrote:The only problem now is that if the mss user is in base contact with other models while in a challenge, you still ave to randomly select a model in base contact, not just the guy you are fighting in a challenge. This sucks to hell on destroyer lords as they have no inv save.

Read challenge rules again, specifically the last sentence under "Fighting a challenge."

I have a feeling they are going to hold off an fixing this via FAQ one way or another until we try out enough games and see just how powerful necrons have now become to decide which way to swing this 15 point upgrade which contributes more to challenges than just about every other piece of war gear.