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Hey guys

I was just reading through the chaos space marine dex aswell as the chaos daemons aswell, and it states that even though you give a prince wings it still counts as jump infantry.

Now i posted this thread on another site and i got replies saying that in the 6th ed rulebook FAQ that wings now count the prince as a FMC,

Any thoughts?

Chaos Daemons variant of Daemon princes with wings count as FMC

Standard CSM HQ's are jump MC's.

And just because I know people are going to complain, this is because the CD Prince is significantly more expensive. A standard CSM Prince with Wings costs 130pts. An identical build from the CD Codex is 190pts (S6, 3+, Wings).

Per the FAQ for CSM any model equipped with wings counts as "jump" so yes, a daemon prince with wings in CSM is just a monstrous creature with the jump capability (i.e. jump infantry).

Chaos daemons are different because of daemonic flight (I believe that's what the special rule is called.) But CSM winged daemon princes are just jump monstrous creatures.

I'm pretty sure all jump monstrous creatures can fly per the rule book.

bagtagger wrote:I'm pretty sure all jump monstrous creatures can fly per the rule book.

Only flying monsterous creatures can fly. Confusing, I know

bagtagger wrote:I'm pretty sure all jump monstrous creatures can fly per the rule book.

If by fly you mean can move 12 in the movement phase you are correct. If by fly you mean swoop and glide then you are wrong since you must be a flying mc to do that. Otherwise you follow the rules for mc and jump together - neither of which permits the flying mc rules to be used.

In White Dwarf WD390 on page 61 they refer to the daemon prince as a flying monstrous ceature

yep then they FAQ it to say they are jump lame for sure. Don't agree with it but its the way it is. that battlereport was done with just the 6th edition book not the FAQ's they changed it all for CSM demon prince.

WD was wrong. They usually play the WD bat reps several months in advance, and often have one or more rules incorrect due to playing a playtest version of the rule or just making a simple mistake.

WD also listed Vector Strike attacks as the wrong number of hits.

The issues is the English FAQ for has had a major lost in translation or cut and paste error of the person who complied it.
Check all the other CSM language FAQ's. I have checked about 6 of them and they all state that an MC with Wings is a Flying MC.
Got my mate who can speak both Spanish and Japanese to confirm the Google translate for both those FAQ's and he confirmed that they were correct.
This is the Spanish FAQ.
Página 85. Equipo especial, Alas.
Sustituye esta entrada por: “Las miniaturas de infantería equipadas
con alas son Infantería de Salto. Las Criaturas Monstruosas
equipadas con alas serán Criaturas Monstruosas Voladoras”.

English Translation.
Page 85. Special equipment, wings. Replaces this entry to: "Models equipped infantry with wings, Jump Infantry. Monstrous Creatures be equipped with wings, Flying Monstrous Creatures. "

This can also explain why the WD battle report actually had the DP as a Flying MC.

quibble wrote:The issues is the English FAQ for has had a major lost in translation or cut and paste error of the person who complied it.

Unless GW has outsourced the writing of their codex FAQs to another country. There is no "translation" into English. English is, and has always been, the original language for Warhammer. It is written in English and then translated into other languages. I suppose that there was a compilation error, but given the price discrepancy between a CSM DP and a CD DP, I suspect this was likely intentional and the non-english FAQs are the mistakes.

So you are saying that when they translated from English into the other languages a whole extra sentence was added onto the paragraph that talks about MC's.

This is it from the English FAQ,
Page 85 Special Equipment, Jump Pack.
Replace this entry with" "Models equipped with a jump pack change their type to Jump Infantry"

Translation of the Spanish FAQ to English.
English Translation.
Page 85. Special equipment, wings. Replaces this entry to: "Models equipped infantry with wings, Jump Infantry. Monstrous Creatures be equipped with wings, Flying Monstrous Creatures. "

Translation of the German FAQ to English.
Page 85 - Special equipment, wings Replace the entry with the following text: "Infantry models with wings change their type of unit to infantry with jump pack, monstrous creatures Wings change their unit type to monstrous flying Creature. "

Translation of the French FAQ to English
Page 85 - Special Equipment, wings Replace the paragraph with: "The infantry figures equipped with wings added "jump" to their type of unit; the monstrous creatures endowed with wings become creatures monstrous flying. "

I just cannot see how compiling and translating from english into other languages would add a whole extra sentence that talks about monstrous creatures and wings which totally changes how a daemon prince will be played in every other country that does not speak english.

There's been a few cases where one of the FAQ's for other language versions has had parts added or changed. Considering the new dex will be out in the next few months, you probably shouldn't worry too much.

The Flying monstrous creatures section says a gliding FMC moves excactly like a jump monstrous creature (p 49), so clearly a Jump MC is an intended, if strange choice. I guess it's an important clarification, kind of like differentiating between Skimmers and Flyers.

quibble wrote:So you are saying that when they translated from English into the other languages a whole extra sentence was added onto the paragraph that talks about MC's.

This is it from the English FAQ,
Page 85 Special Equipment, Jump Pack.
Replace this entry with" "Models equipped with a jump pack change their type to Jump Infantry"

Translation of the Spanish FAQ to English.
English Translation.
Page 85. Special equipment, wings. Replaces this entry to: "Models equipped infantry with wings, Jump Infantry. Monstrous Creatures be equipped with wings, Flying Monstrous Creatures. "

Translation of the German FAQ to English.
Page 85 - Special equipment, wings Replace the entry with the following text: "Infantry models with wings change their type of unit to infantry with jump pack, monstrous creatures Wings change their unit type to monstrous flying Creature. "

Translation of the French FAQ to English
Page 85 - Special Equipment, wings Replace the paragraph with: "The infantry figures equipped with wings added "jump" to their type of unit; the monstrous creatures endowed with wings become creatures monstrous flying. "

I just cannot see how compiling and translating from english into other languages would add a whole extra sentence that talks about monstrous creatures and wings which totally changes how a daemon prince will be played in every other country that does not speak english.

Is that in the CSM or CD FAQ?

barnowl wrote:
Is that in the CSM or CD FAQ?

Those are all from the CSM FAQs.

You can add the Japanese version of the FAQ to that list. (I double checked against the Tyranid FAQ in case the terminology got translated strangely.)

Maybe they sent out the FAQ to be translated, and then changed the English version without following up on the change. Or they forgot to change the English version. I think we're reduced to pure speculation for which the correct version is.

1. I have an 1850 league firing up next week.
2. I roll CSM.
3. I love my DP's with wings.
4. My understanding is that the FMC vs. Jump Infantry debate is highly contested, yet unresolved.
5. The local gamers despise DP's and nearly all want them to be jump infantry.
6. My question is: If I field them as FMC's, can the will of the people override that or do I have a case to field them as I wish?
7. The "overseer" of the league is wishy-washy as to making a ruling...

-NM

The organizer has to make a ruling. That's his job. Then it's up to everyone else to be good sports and live with it.

That being said, the English-language CSM FAQ (which has always been the default in cases of conflict with translated versions) says they are Jump Monstrous Creatures. Not Flying MCs.

Nymphomancer wrote:1. I have an 1850 league firing up next week.
2. I roll CSM.
3. I love my DP's with wings.
4. My understanding is that the FMC vs. Jump Infantry debate is highly contested, yet unresolved.
5. The local gamers despise DP's and nearly all want them to be jump infantry.
6. My question is: If I field them as FMC's, can the will of the people override that or do I have a case to field them as I wish?
7. The "overseer" of the league is wishy-washy as to making a ruling...

-NM

You have no actual rule support for fielding a CSM DP with Wings as FMC. Absolutely none. Different language FAQ's could have different answers due to any number of reasons. The English FAQ is quite clear on the answer.

You could field a Chaos Daemon Allied Detachment if you want FMC's. 1 as an HQ choice, one Prince in Heavy Support. Or you could take a full daemon flying circus as your primary detachment, and leave the CSM as the Allies. In that case, you could get 5 FMC's.

Irdiumstern wrote:
You have no actual rule support for fielding a CSM DP with Wings as FMC. Absolutely none. Different language FAQ's could have different answers due to any number of reasons. The English FAQ is quite clear on the answer.

The issue with this is that all the non English FAQ's say the same thing. It is the English one that is different.

Stating that all the others are wrong just because they are not English is just flawed. The whole "The game is written in English so the English one is more correct" is just full of rubbish.

I do understand that things can get lost in translation. But adding a whole extra sentence that only talks about Monstrous Creatures being Flying MC's is not a lost in translation error.

Also notice the size of the non English FAQ's to the English ones. The size of the English ones are between 7-8 times larger in file size and also do not have selectable text, which shows that OCR has not been run over it.

These things just add more to the fact that the English FAQ’s might not be the most correct.

GW are a British company. I gaurentee you the English FAQ is the correct one. That's how we roll
Maybe it's just a massive practical joke on foreigners?

A DP from the Chaos Codex with wings is 100% a FMC. I love how people like to justify their points of view.

6th changed how wings work on MC.

Sorry haters.

MJThurston wrote:A DP from the Chaos Codex with wings is 100% a FMC. I love how people like to justify their points of view.

6th changed how wings work on MC.

Sorry haters.

Except the FAQ, which overrides and replaces rules clearly states that a CSM DP is classified as a Jump Monstrous Creature, meaning it has the Monstrous Creature rules, as well as those that fall under the heading "Jump". You can read whatever language FAQ you want to make it seem like you are right, but the truth remains the same.

Not really sure how you can claim they are flying, due to 6th Edition.

That FAQ you point out is for 5th Ed. It is not for 6th. It is no longer valid.

6th changed how MC fly.

Do DP's from the Chaos Codex have wings? Yes.

So why would they not be FMC? Because you claim a 5th Ed FAQ says so. Sorry, new rules.

Every single MC that had wings moved like jump troops. It was the only rule to use at the time. Now there are FMC and if you are a MC with wings then that is what you are now. If DP's had jump packs, then you'd have a leg to stand on.

You make my brain hurt.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420309a_Chaos_Space_Marine_6th.pdf

I must have missed math that day.

MJThurston wrote:That FAQ you point out is for 5th Ed. It is not for 6th. It is no longer valid.

6th changed how MC fly.

Do DP's from the Chaos Codex have wings? Yes.

So why would they not be FMC? Because you claim a 5th Ed FAQ says so. Sorry, new rules.

Every single MC that had wings moved like jump troops. It was the only rule to use at the time. Now there are FMC and if you are a MC with wings then that is what you are now. If DP's had jump packs, then you'd have a leg to stand on.

The FAQ specifically states that it is a JUMP monstrous creature.

Oh for...

No, it is not a 5th edition FAQ. The clue is the title - "6th". then it says "Official update for 6th edition, V1.0". Thats the second clue

Then you have the fact, inconvenient I guess, that the actual errata is "Models equipped with Wings add "Jump" to their unit type", which is 6th edition language.

So, no, you're wrong, not haters given i PLAY chaos space marines, and love my DPs. However currently they are NOT Flying MCs.

If you disagree provide some actual rules.

I don't remember GW putting out FAQ's so fast for each army.

So as per the 6th ed RAW DP do not get FMC.