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So I finally got my copy of 6th ed. (very excited, and overall extremely pleased with it), and came across the melee weapons entry: pg 60. Now, I play CSM, and heavily rely on berzerkers, so naturally you could understand my excitement when i saw the heavy chainsword entry: Strength: +2, ap: 5, and two handed.

Now, my question is this; what would be a fair cost to give them to my berzerkers? My original idea was to make them 1 point a pop, while giving up the bolt pistol.and krak grenades. I thought it pretty fair to sacrifice any ranged attacks (bolt pistol) as well as the what I'm assuming is the increased chance of tank popping from the average zerker (powerfist champ excluded) in the form of the krak grenades.

Thoughts DakkaDakka?

I'll asume you are making your own fandex for this i'd use the same cost the khornate chainaxes used to have on the 3.5 codex, can't remember if it was 1 or 5 per model thou

Edit: Just checked, yeah it used to be +1 point/model, guess that would be fine.

I guess those will be included in the next chaos codex. Reminds me of when Berserker used to have ap4 chain axes, but +2S ap5 certainly seems tasty.
To get to the point, imho 1 Point for +2 strength ap5 seems very under priced. Given the Berserkers other stats, you end up with a Space Marine who has 3 attacks S7 (ap5) on charge for just above 20 points... as troops. Unless I have completely misunderstood or forgotten something, I'd say that that's a little too good for too little.

Considering Orks pay +5 points for a +2 Str AP- big choppa
I'd say about 8-10 points.

grendel083 wrote:Considering Orks pay +5 points for a +2 Str AP- big choppa
I'd say about 8-10 points.

80-100 Points seems very steep to upgrade 10 guys. I think the best option would be to price it cheap, or even make it a free upgrade, but make the Heavy Chainswords two-handed, therefore trading 1 attack for +2S.

That's exactly what Orks do now. Big Choppas are two-handed as well, but (so far) are not AP5. They don't trade in anything but their Choppas though. I think ~5 points is a reasonable price, +2 str in combat is nothing to sneeze at.

Valkyrie wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Considering Orks pay +5 points for a +2 Str AP- big choppa
I'd say about 8-10 points.

80-100 Points seems very steep to upgrade 10 guys. I think the best option would be to price it cheap, or even make it a free upgrade, but make the Heavy Chainswords two-handed, therefore trading 1 attack for +2S.

Just have to say: one of the reasons for the nobz' expensive +2 str Ap- is that they get this in addition to furious charge, the fact that 11+ models = fearless, high number of attacks, having two wounds etc, and the fact that they are (relativley) cheap elite-smashing, light-tank-popping, gunfire-absorbing close combat monsters, who for +30 (or is it 60) points can get FnP from a painboy...

Lord Yayula wrote:I'll asume you are making your own fandex for this i'd use the same cost the khornate chainaxes used to have on the 3.5 codex, can't remember if it was 1 or 5 per model thou

Edit: Just checked, yeah it used to be +1 point/model, guess that would be fine.

No, I wasn't making a fandex but I was trying to figure out how to work these awesome sounding weapons into the existing one. But looking at some of the above comments I think It might be better to bump the cost up to three points, especially considering I play against orks and IG for the most part (and occasionally daemons).

@Wrakkar; Oh no, 10 overcosted models can pay 5 points a piece to charge at S7, which makes them sort of a threat to guardsmen and maybe 5-man tactical squads, especially if they remove one of themselves for a painboy (50 point painboy woo!)

And then you look at paladins and wonder what you were smoking.

chrisrawr wrote:@Wrakkar; Oh no, 10 overcosted models can pay 5 points a piece to charge at S7, which makes them sort of a threat to guardsmen and maybe 5-man tactical squads, especially if they remove one of themselves for a painboy (50 point painboy woo!)

And then you look at paladins and wonder what you were smoking.

A squad doesn't have to wipe out a unit in one turn to be a threat to it. Also if you pay 55 points for a 2 wound model you are doing something wrong.

chrisrawr wrote:@Wrakkar; Oh no, 10 overcosted models can pay 5 points a piece to charge at S7, which makes them sort of a threat to guardsmen and maybe 5-man tactical squads, especially if they remove one of themselves for a painboy (50 point painboy woo!)

And then you look at paladins and wonder what you were smoking.

Erm.. I don't know which post you read, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't what I was getting at...

Re read the post with the following tone of voice: Reasoning.

Again, IN ADDITION to furious charge means nothing when S7 is a pointless value in 90% of cases; Zerkers get FC too. Nobs alone (the only ones that can get painboys) cannot be 11 models until you add IC's to them.

Berzerkers are already: Naturally fearless, same furious charge, +1WS without buying a fancy banner, larger squads, better initiative, better grenades, better codex support overall (especially with IA and FW product), better armour save, and av14 transport option that isn't opentopped. They are overcosted by a couple points, sure, but nobs are 4 points overcosted at 20. The only thing nobs have is +1W and overcosted FNP, which means nothing when half the unit is gone before they get to attack in any case.

So once again, the person denoting 5-8 points for a big choppa with AP5 is the closest to it at the moment.

Let's do a points for points comparison;

10 Nobs with a Painboy, 3 Claws, 3 Big Choppas, 9 4+ Armour, and a Waaagh banner is 390 points.

15 Zerkers with a fist champion and 3 plasma pistols is ~380

Assuming all are in -

Zerker Turn: Zerkers shoot; bolt pistols 8 hits and 4 wounds, 1.6r unsaved wounds. 3 Plasma pistols 2 hits 1.6r wounds 1.4r unsaved wounds. .16r unsaved wounds on zerkers.

Zerkers charge; 9 shots in return, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .283r unsaved (.45 unsaved on zerkers so far, 3.1 on nobs) Charge; 54 attacks, 27 hit, 18 wound. 6 unsaved.

i3, 8 attacks from nobs, 6 from choppas, 3 from painboy; 4, 3, 1.5 hit, 2, 2.5, 1.125 wounds, 1.83 unsaved. Total is at ~2.3 to 9.1

I1; Zerker fist 2 hits, 1.6r wounds. Unsaved; 3.3r.
Return, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.6r wounds unsaved. 5 to ~12.44r.

Nobs charge;

9 Shots, 3 hit, 1.5 wounds, .5 unsaved.
Nobs charge, overwatch is .7 unsaved back

zerkers hit, 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 4.4 unsaved.
Nobs back; 13 reg, 10 choppa, 4 painboy. 6.5, 5, 2 hit, 4.3r, 4.16r, 1.5 wound, 3.3r unsaved.

Fists; 1.5 hits, 1.2 wounds, 2.4 unsaved. Zerker total is 7.5 unsaved.

Claws - 10 attacks, 5 hits, 4.16r wounds unsaved. Nobs total is 8.5 unsaved.

tl;dr zerkers are at least as good as nobs when taking, much better on the charge, and better on subsequent rounds.

5-8 points is fine for +2S

Don't forget that Furious Charge has been downgraded by removing the extra Initiative and taking away the +1A assault bonus for multiple assaults (pg 37), this will definitely hurt Ork players, so 5 points for +2S would be fair.

I expect that the CSM Codex will reintroduce the Khorne Axe for a AP2 power weapon maybe for Sgt upgrades.

Scabfang wrote:Don't forget that Furious Charge has been downgraded by removing the extra Initiative and taking away the +1A assault bonus for multiple assaults (pg 37), this will definitely hurt Ork players, so 5 points for +2S would be fair.

I expect that the CSM Codex will reintroduce the Khorne Axe for a AP2 power weapon maybe for Sgt upgrades.

I sure hope they do, powergamers are gonna just spam terminator-hammer on me, and Khorne demands that I kill with something more than a daemon prince...

Fire_for_effect wrote:I guess those will be included in the next chaos codex. Reminds me of when Berserker used to have ap4 chain axes, but +2S ap5 certainly seems tasty.
To get to the point, imho 1 Point for +2 strength ap5 seems very under priced. Given the Berserkers other stats, you end up with a Space Marine who has 3 attacks S7 (ap5) on charge for just above 20 points... as troops. Unless I have completely misunderstood or forgotten something, I'd say that that's a little too good for too little.

Death Company get 5 S5 attacks on the charge, with FNP to boot, for 20 points. Beserkers getting 3 S7s is pretty tame by comparison

I could see Heavy Chainweapon being +5 pts. Considering it's 2handed, you wouldn't get an extra attack for having two weapons, and as such you trade the extra attack for +2 STR and AP5.

Maybe +10 instead, since it's only 1 AP worse than a Power Maul, and Power Weapons tend to be 15pts~ each. (then again, the Power Maul gets Concussive...)

5 - 10 pts seems fair.