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Since Allies brings a whole new layer of army interaction, I want to know whether Epidemius and his Tally of Pestilence works on non-Daemons when the Tally confers Noxious Touch on followers of Nurgle.

Under the description for Noxious Touch, the rules do not mention anyone but Daemons as users of this ability.

Does that mean that non-Daemons who have this ability conferred to them as followers of Nurgle (like Plague Marines) arguably cannot use it since they are not Daemons?

What's the exact wording on Tally of Pestilence?

it says daemons of nurgle and those with the mark of nurgle.

Plague Marines have the mark of nurgle.

It also effects both sides.

Yes, he will rock a nurgle themed army with PM and Daemons.

There you go then. QED.

Totally getting some PMs for my Daemons army now.

The particular thing that I am questioning is when the Tally confers Noxious Touch.

Under the ability description of Noxious Touch, the ability only outlines usage by Daemons, not citing any other models or characters who use it.

So can Noxious Touch be used by Plague Marines even though they are not Daemons when the Tally confers the ability on them?

So in the book it uses words like 'a daemon with noxious touch' rather than 'a model with noxious touch?'

Correct. When talking about the ability, it only mentions Daemons. Specifically, "The Daemon" and then insert the text for what the Daemon gets with Noxious Touch.

Such as it is, RAW suggests that only a Daemon can use Noxious Touch, but Epidemius confers Noxious Touch to all followers of Nurgle, even non-Daemons. RAI might be such that even those with the Mark of Nurgle who are not Daemons should also obtain this ability.

Another wrinkle is that the GK FAQ explicitly states what is a Daemon, such as a CSM Daemon Prince and Possessed Chaos Space Marines. So those two models who have the Mark of Nurgle and are Daemons as classified by the GK codex are Daemons from another codex ruling. So at the very least, they should have Noxious Touch.

Hmm, that does muddy the waters. I would think that RAI are that the Plaguemarines would get it, but there's a definite RAW conflict going on there. I think this would be one of those ' opponent's consent' situations.

In the FAQ for Deamons, on the first page they errata'd Daemonic Rivalry so that IC's can't join units of their allies and vice versa

Don't units with daemonic influence of some type(marks possession etc) kind of count as daemons? I know that sounds odd but my thought is, if they have the touch of nurgle unless they've fully changed into daemonhood of some type wouldn't they be a "daemon" 1% or 99%...if that sounds anywhere in the ballpark of coherent...

htj wrote:Hmm, that does muddy the waters. I would think that RAI are that the Plaguemarines would get it, but there's a definite RAW conflict going on there. I think this would be one of those ' opponent's consent' situations.

I think it's pretty clear that it is not RAI, as both books were written in different editions, and it was not FAQd to be corrected.

Here is how it works, per RAW:

Anyone with Mark of Nurgle, gets Noxious Touch. Once the tally has been reached. However, if they are not a Daemon, they cannot benefit from having it.

Sasori wrote:

htj wrote:Hmm, that does muddy the waters. I would think that RAI are that the Plaguemarines would get it, but there's a definite RAW conflict going on there. I think this would be one of those ' opponent's consent' situations.

I think it's pretty clear that it is not RAI, as both books were written in different editions, and it was not FAQd to be corrected.

Here is how it works, per RAW:

Anyone with Mark of Nurgle, gets Noxious Touch. Once the tally has been reached. However, if they are not a Daemon, they cannot benefit from having it.

I would have to agree with this as the exact wording is this:

the daemon and its weapons are covered in the most lethal and toxic substances, instantly infecting any flesh it touches. this Daemon's close combat attacks are poisoned 2+, as described in the warhammer 40,000 rule book

I would have to say that posessed and nurgle DPs would get it (as they are daemons) but normal followers of nurgle (plague marines, units with an icon etc.) wouldnt. and besides, I'm more scared of what happens when the tally hits 20 o.o

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not so sure. Caemons was definitely not written with 6th ed in mind, and they had no reason not to use the word 'daemon' as the book had only one troop choice that wasn't a daemon, and that couldn't take Noxious Touch. It's seems kind of stupid for a model to be given a rule that it cannot use, and personally, I don't think that was intended.

RAW though, you are correct. By the straight interpretation of the written rules you either have to assume that the model gets it but cannot use it, or that the model suddenly becomes a daemon for the purposes of this rule alone. All a bit of a mess, really.

htj wrote:I see where you're coming from, but I'm not so sure. Caemons was definitely not written with 6th ed in mind, and they had no reason not to use the word 'daemon' as the book had only one troop choice that wasn't a daemon, and that couldn't take Noxious Touch. It's seems kind of stupid for a model to be given a rule that it cannot use, and personally, I don't think that was intended.

RAW though, you are correct. By the straight interpretation of the written rules you either have to assume that the model gets it but cannot use it, or that the model suddenly becomes a daemon for the purposes of this rule alone. All a bit of a mess, really.

if it then becomes a daemon, does that mean we get fear causing plague marines

I concur. By the wording Noxious Touch cannot benefit you if you're not a Daemon.

Daemon Princes and Lesser Daemons are definitely Daemons, as per the CSM FAQ they both gained the Daemon USR. Though generic Lessers can't get a mark so won't benefit.

The GK FAQ does have a very broadly phrased question, "What counts as a Daemon?", which tells us that a bunch of other units also count, but of those units, Possessed are the only other one capable of taking an Icon and thus counting as having the Mark of Nurgle.

DPBellathrom wrote:

htj wrote:I see where you're coming from, but I'm not so sure. Caemons was definitely not written with 6th ed in mind, and they had no reason not to use the word 'daemon' as the book had only one troop choice that wasn't a daemon, and that couldn't take Noxious Touch. It's seems kind of stupid for a model to be given a rule that it cannot use, and personally, I don't think that was intended.

RAW though, you are correct. By the straight interpretation of the written rules you either have to assume that the model gets it but cannot use it, or that the model suddenly becomes a daemon for the purposes of this rule alone. All a bit of a mess, really.

if it then becomes a daemon, does that mean we get fear causing plague marines

Absolutely. In fact, I choose to interpret the rule this way!

But yeah, as it stands, I'm going to read this as no effect Noxious Touch for Plaguemarines. Boo!

Remember that not all Daemonic units cause Fear. Fear comes automatically with the Daemon USR.