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With the launch of 6th edition, CSM, while being nerfed in some areas, have become much better in others. Nurgle in particular. Especially with Epidemius. Kairos with Tzeentch terminators as well. though. When they get their update, if the power creep seems to be indication, CSM will be on the level of GK and Necrons.

Few if anyone saw it coming. Necrons came out and it was seen as an okay army, pretty balanced and too OP at worst. We knew that Necrons were made with 6th in mind and they were pretty balanced. So, it was not uncommon to think that they would stay that way in 6th. We were wrong, dear God were we wrong. They got broken to high Hell, and it seems only a 6th edition codex can match them evenly. (GK was made for 6th as well though) Enter CSM, the first codex made exclusively for 6th. The power creep has not gone away and will only continue. You are certain to see Necrons and/or GK at most tournies, and they will win, unless you have a real good player beat them, or a real moron fail at GK and Necrons.

First off, in the fluff CSM have gotten their own special section, given special attention. In 5th It was all about loyalist marines, and look what happened. Every Marine Codex that came out got more powerful than the last(SW I don't know about but BA was OP and of course GK). With 6th edition focusing on chaos, it is a safe bet that Chaos will also get "special attention" and made into the greatest threat to the galaxy that they are made out to be in the 6th edition fluff. Chaos has always been popular, right behind SM. Just that Gav Thorpe screwed us CSM players over with that BS codex.

Second; the previously mentioned power creep and how it has not gone away. Yea Necrons were balanced, if not slightly OP. Along comes 5th though and they get so broken its boggles the mind. It would be a pipe dream to think that CSM won't "balanced" when compared to Necrons and GK(depending on whether you think GK got nerfed that badly). Of course if there is going to be balance, it will be to where each 6th edition codex that comes out will be "balanced", however it will be when compared to other 6th edition Codices. You might as well say Necrons are a 6th edition codex, they were made for 6th in mind. Noone knew how much of a jump between 5th and 6th would be in a power creep. 6th edition armies may indeed be balanced, but not to 5th edition armies. So if any of you play an army that isn't GK, Necrons, or CSM when it updates, then You are probably going to hate the GK/Necron/CSM in the future till your codex gets updated.

Third; Money. Lets face it, complain all you want about Mat Ward' broken armies. That isn't stopping people from buying them. Despite the price hike people are still shelling out obscene amounts of money to buy broken armies, I've have heard the hate for GW boil over to people telling others to boycott them. That was probably the STUPIDEST idea I have ever heard in the realm of wargaming. As long as people are going to buy entire armies so they can kick everyone's ass, GW can hike the prices all they want. SOMEONE will pay for them, there are alot of impulse buyers out there. GK and Necrons obliterate everyone else. Guess what armies have the most sales as of now. I know Space marines are still the all time best sellers, but you have to admit when a broken army comes out, sales for that army do not go down at all until the next broken army comes out, hence the power creep IMO. It's all about keeping the WAAC players to buy, buy, buy. And apparently there are enough of them, or they are buying enough stuff to where those that are quitting because of this can go to Hell. GW has even been arrogant enough to raise the prices, believing that there are people who want to win so badly they do not care what the other players with older armies think. It looks like they may be right to an extent. AS long as they have broken armies, they will someone to buy them. When CSM comes out, you will see sales for CSM skyrocket. Not just because they got better, but that they are the New Grey Knights/Necrons. These people who jump on the bandwagon every time a new broken army comes out will keep GW afloat. If no one bought GK and Necrons, then maybe they'd smarten up.(doubtful) Yet they are given a reason to keep up with the power creep. Each Codex will come out and be more powerful than the next, and people will buy those models because they want to win, pure and simple. Then again, what I said about 6th Armies only balanced with other 6th armies, and steamrolling over 5th edition armies.

CSM was my first army for 40k. I have been a CSM player since September 2007. So, CSM's update gives me mixed feelings. On one hand I am excited that my army will be updated and that we will be far better than we are now. On the other, there is the idea that they will keep the power creep up and CSM will be crap again within a year or so. However, It will be fun while it lasts. Then there is idea of all these mentioned WAAC types playing chaos because you will rape everyone else that isn't GK or Necrons. There is the possibility those with much older codices are very good at their army, thing is the game will only be out a month or 2 by the time of my beloved CSM release so none of them will have enough expierience with 6th to get that good with their older army and those with armies tailor made for 6th(GK, Necrons, CSM) will have a huge advantage. By the time the next Codex comes out that will change, for the foreseeable future though.... I played CSM for years and have waited paitiently for their update. There will be vindication at their release, yet I know I am going to be hated because I play an army that will be as broken as Necrons or GK simply because the power creep is not going to stop anytime soon. The disdain I can deal with. It's all these others that jump onto CSM simply because they are THE army for the time, giving us true CSM players a bad name.

As I type this it is almost 6 AM, I am tired and my meds have kicked in, so this was probably not the best time to rant. Anyways, whether you agree with me or disagree about this subject, please voice your opinion.

I have a feeling that all Daemons will be stripped out of the CSM codex. That way you pretty much have to buy the Chaos Daemons codex and take them out of there. Time will tell though.

I've had a CSM army since 2nd ed, when the awesome codex came out around WD issue 200.

I've played Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Red Corsairs since that time and aside from the current dex and the first 3rd ed dex, CSM have always been powerful. There were things like hero hammer in 2nd, the OP legion rules in 3.5 that made CSM über.

4th dex was utter bs. Thorpe watered it down so much just to bring it in line with more simpler rules sets and with that, got rid of the legion rules making us believe that Chaos really loves each other, it really does, honest.

I welcome a powerful dex for CSM. I'll take balanced, but I won't say no to a good smash face dex.

I'd really rather not condemn a Codex as overpowered before we even hear any rules rumours from it.

But again, it won't surprise me to see the nerf bat swing at certain units Nurgle stuff with the Tally and Obliterators come to mind.

If the codex is good, has lots of builds and you are a Chaos player why do you care?

Sorry, image was needed.

I'm mostly just hoping the 6th edition dex's are like 8th edition fantasy dex's, fair, balanced, and work right.

Also I don't believe necrons are that overpowered, Havn't really lost to one in a while even with the new rules coming into play.

@lord_blakcfang: I started this thread so I could get peoples 2 cents on what they think. Whether CSM will be balanced compared to 5th edition codex's and What Ward did was not to be a template, whether if will be on par with Necrons and GK, or if it will go above them. Think of this as a first impression on 6th edition codices.

@Zebio: lol l like the visual reference.

I've had to put up with Thorpe's steaming pile of codex for too long for us simply to be "balanced". I WANT to smash faces.

Cerebrium wrote:I've had to put up with Thorpe's steaming pile of codex for too long for us simply to be "balanced". I WANT to smash faces.

He did that in Vampire Counts and Dark Elves for fantasy, and they were the top two before DoC came along. Nobody wants any of his dex's to be seen again.

ShatteredBlade wrote:I have a feeling that all Daemons will be stripped out of the CSM codex. That way you pretty much have to buy the Chaos Daemons codex and take them out of there. Time will tell though.

I am warming up to like this.

Cerebrium wrote:I've had to put up with Thorpe's steaming pile of codex for too long for us simply to be "balanced". I WANT to smash faces.

The Chaos codex is fine power wise, just pretty unfluffy.

castellan wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:I have a feeling that all Daemons will be stripped out of the CSM codex. That way you pretty much have to buy the Chaos Daemons codex and take them out of there. Time will tell though.

I am warming up to like this.

Yeah, I'd wager it's pretty much a given that generic summoned daemons are going out of the window in favour of daemon allies.

Which is good for me, because then I can get CSM, cultists and daemons all in the same list.

Truth is nobody knows cos it aint out yet so

GASP! Power creep!? Unbalanced rules and codexes!? In 40k!? NEVER! yes it probably will be, whats new? This game was not designed for competitive WAAC and everything black and white tournaments. It's just way too unbalanced and way to many dice involved, so if what you are looking for is balance between armies and a fair rule set that favors everyone you either haven’t been playing that long or need to try another game... this is the way 40k has always been. While you obviously can play it with a super competitive and tournament mindset thats not what the game is designed for, its designed for fun fluff and cinematic adventure over pizza in the basement with your buddies or laughing with a stranger about your terrible luck at a GW outlet.

Will the Chaos codex rules be out of balance with every other codex? Maybe. Will it be anything new or game changing? No. annoying but inevitable, like it or not that’s the nature of the beast.

I somehow doubt it. Seems to me that early codices of an edition are strong mostly because they use or foresee more of that edition's rules. Eventually, other releases make it fade into the background a bit.

In 5th that's not quite as true, given how Space wolves and Guard came early and stayed strong until the end, but,,,well, Imerial factions do get a bit of extra attention in my opinion, if not an actual boost.

Though the fact that CSM will be on the basic box encourages me a bit. Maybe they even want a convincing foil for their top seller SMs. And it might be the strongest book against flyers for a time, as it will have more organic ways of dealing with tham (i.e, can actually offcially take AA upgrades from the book).

That is IF their design makes sense, though. Make that bet if you're bold.

As a CSM player I'm looking forward to the update. I'm not looking forward to there being more CSM players, as I don't like playing against my own army. It would suck for me if they decided to combat power creep, and not have this codex power creep. I want it to be good, an upgrade from the previous codex, but not so good that other people wont play me, or that everyone switches to chaos. And whoever mentioned a nerf to obliterators, shut your dirty whore mouth, dont even present the possibility of that happening.

wow, the codex isn't even out yet and already people are bitching about how OP it's going to be -.-

as for crons, I'm yet to fight a necron army that I cant beat. Same goes for GK and any other army that is considered OP these days. There is a reason why a new codex always seems op and that's cos it changes the current metta. People got pretty scared about nob bikers with wound dickery until someone thought about the issue for a few seconds and found a way to beat them. I'm amazed that people are still dumb enough to charge units of GKs with their “death stars” and wonder why their doing so badly (here's a hint. your charging some of the best CC units in the game rather than shooting them) and rather than reflect on the issue they cry op and run off to sulk

Losing games of 40K has been the best way for me to advance my gaming. If I get beat by an army I will look over my last game and figure out why I lost and adapt my list and/or tactics so that it can win next time, not instantly label the army as OP and blame the codex writers.

And for the last time, Matt Ward is not the only person who works on codex’s and they aren’t broken either, there’s just a clear distinction between which units are good and which are bad. I agree the fluff in those books tends to be sub-par (blood angels fighting with crons is a good example) but that has no impact on the rules what so ever.

/rant

Hmm hobby is optional people, enough whinging.

Re CSM, for me the first nightlords book nailed it, as did the TS Ragnar met as a bloodclaw. There should be few of them as renewal at the whim of small warlords mostly and weapons are whats available, but they all will be very old and experienced.

This suggests to me the blend of CSM and other forces will be key, ie the use of cultists. Equally, like Eldar and DE, given their limited resources, unlike smash face comments above, i would speculate new dex will require craft and cunning and may give you asymmetric warfare special rules

All guesswork though

Yeah, even by judging by the starter set, I can imagine Cultists as troops with Chosen as the power armour units being at the forefront. Which I like the idea of.

We all know it won't happen, Mat Ward didn't write the codex for starters and rumors indicate our new codex is along the lines of the current codex. Which itself sucks. As a chaos player I wish our codex will be broken! I want to smash the followers of the corpse god with an unholy ruleset. But sadly since they are the poster boys of the game we will forever be regulated to being punching bags.

Haha, im happy to wallop you anytime

Spartan089 wrote:We all know it won't happen, Mat Ward didn't write the codex for starters and rumors indicate our new codex is along the lines of the current codex. Which itself sucks. As a chaos player I wish our codex will be broken! I want to smash the followers of the corpse god with an unholy ruleset. But sadly since they are the poster boys of the game we will forever be regulated to being punching bags.

Yeah, just like the Necr... oh, wait.

Also, pretending that Mat Ward is the only one who writes strong Codices is silly, remember Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?

lord_blackfang wrote:I'd really rather not condemn a Codex as overpowered before we even hear any rules rumours from it.

As much sense as this statement makes [a lot], I have to surmise that no matter what is in the new book, people will complain and moan and whine about how this or that was screwed up or this piece of esoteric fluff was ignored and on and on and on and on...

So keep on keepin' on internet, let's show this Lord BrackFang who's the boss of us!

My 2c, I think that codex creep is as much a part of 40k as flavour of the month armies is. It's a way to sell things to the consumer they wouldn't normally buy or aren't actually as interested in. For as long as I can remember since 2e the next codex produced is more hyped up than the last, is more powerful than the last and is more advanced in mechanics than the last. If you were to look at a codex as though it was the evolutionary steps from one edition to the next, you'd see its a fundamental thing to have codex creep. And codex creep itself is the reason for flavour of the month armies... *the newer stuff looks better, works better, is more unique etc. etc.*