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Greetifications Dakknites,

A friend and have been play-testing 6th this week and we came across a confusing situation involving Chariots that we didn’t really know how to handle.

Here it is:

A Necron Overlord mounted on a Catacomb Command Barge (CCB) charges into a unit of 12 Hormagaunts. The initial assault brings the lord into base contact with 2 gaunts.

The Hammer of Wrath effect of the chariot triggers and deals 4 S6 impact hits at I10 into the gaunts killing 3. The casualties removed are the 2 in contact with the chariot, and 1 extra.

(Here’s where it gets sticky…)

The Initiative Pile-In phase is supposed to begin now, but based off of what we read; it doesn’t and the combat ends immediately.

Here’s what confused us all to be damn’d:

Pg23 – Start of Initiative Step Pile-In (last paragraph)
“If both players pile in moved combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost…”

Pg23 – Who Can Fight
“Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile-In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.”

Pg 82 – Chariots (Fighting from a Chariot)
“Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and it’s rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat”

Based on these little jewels, the Hormagaunts have been killed out of base contact and cannot Pile-In as they are not locked. The combat ends because the I4 Pile-In phase failed. To make things worse, as a chariot the CCB can’t make Pile-In moves as it is never locked.

Are we looking at this situation correctly? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shawn G. (SoI)

Couple of things for consideration, not that any of them matter.

1. When you assault "closest to closest" it will be mathematically improbable that you will be able to assault a single model into base to base with more than one enemy model. Doesn't matter in this scenario, but food for thought. This is due to that that it would be extremely rare that both enemy models are "exactly" the same distance from th charging model.

2. The Gaunts were presumably in coherence (within 2" of each other) so when they pile in 3" on their initiative. 2" coherence plus 25mm base is almost exactly 3" so at least one of the remaining Gaunts should be able to get into B2B with the chariot, and at least one more would be able to get within 2" of the model in B2B?

3. Thquot on page 23 describes units locked in combat and models engaged. It says the check if a model is engaged at each initiatives st, but does not say to check for a unit locked in combat at each step. IMHO locked in combat is checked at the beginning of each phase to determine what limitations are put on a unit (I.e. can't shoot, etc) and engagement is checked at each Init step.

punchdub wrote:Couple of things for consideration, not that any of them matter.

1. When you assault "closest to closest" it will be mathematically improbable that you will be able to assault a single model into base to base with more than one enemy model. Doesn't matter in this scenario, but food for thought. This is due to that that it would be extremely rare that both enemy models are "exactly" the same distance from th charging model.

2. The Gaunts were presumably in coherence (within 2" of each other) so when they pile in 3" on their initiative. 2" coherence plus 25mm base is almost exactly 3" so at least one of the remaining Gaunts should be able to get into B2B with the chariot, and at least one more would be able to get within 2" of the model in B2B?

3. Thquot on page 23 describes units locked in combat and models engaged. It says the check if a model is engaged at each initiatives st, but does not say to check for a unit locked in combat at each step. IMHO locked in combat is checked at the beginning of each phase to determine what limitations are put on a unit (I.e. can't shoot, etc) and engagement is checked at each Init step.

1 - I think it is very possible to only touch one model during a charge phase if you are using a single model. The Pile-In phase appears to be designed to cover the consolidation move we had back in 5th. All I have to do is touch my single model to one of yours and my charge is complete.

2 - I understand this, but my question was since the I10 Hammer of Wrath (HoW) hits killed all the BtB combatants, are the hormagaunts allowed to Pile-In? Did the CCB's HoW hits kill them out of combat.

3 - This makes sense. to me. I'm fairly inexperienced in 40k rules so that's why I brought this here.

Shawn G.

Soul of Iron,

1. I agree, but if I wasn't clear, the first assaulting model, CCB in this case, must make a direct move, etc, etc. This is where the math comes in. Improbable that the CCB is equidistant from 2 enemy models, thus it will come into contact with one, before it has a chance to come into contact with another model.

2. I don't believe that you check for locked in combat at each Init step and therefore the only way the "ending combat" rule takes effect is if after pile-in there are no models in B2B.

That said, GW could have intended to change the way "locked in combat" works and I could be totally wrong.

The question seems to bank on that a unit "locked in combat" can ONLY take said actions. It does not say that a unit, not "locked in combat" would not make pile in moves, only that locked units are unable to do any other actions (context I believe being in other phases of player turns).

I believe that you "Skip initiative steps" for steps that lack models acting, so, you would not check if combat has to end until DIRECTLY after a model makes a pile in attempt.

There are some situational bummers for OLords on chariots, but I don't think anything game breaking. Mostly that you check for MSS at the start of the fight phase, and then you are likely to kill the single model you are in b2b with using your hammer of wrath hits, negating the scarabs for the turn.

Soul of Iron wrote:

2 - I understand this, but my question was since the I10 Hammer of Wrath (HoW) hits killed all the BtB combatants, are the hormagaunts allowed to Pile-In? Did the CCB's HoW hits kill them out of combat.

Well you also have the discrepancy where:

"the Chariot itself has the Hammer of Wrath special rule..." (bottom, p82 under "Special Rules") yet "... a Chariot cannot strike blows in close combat..." (top, p82 under "Fighting from a Chariot")

SoI, what he is saying, is when the Chariot charged... I would have come into base contact with *one* Hgaunt, not two.

Continuing:

Pg23 – Who Can Fight
“Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile-In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.”

You are right, this rule does not apply. But that does not change anything.

Initiative Pile in does not require you to be locked in combat, so the HGs pile in, and combat resumes.

Also note that A monstrous Creature may very well do exactly the same thing. According to your argument, if he kills all of the models he is in base contact with during its Hammer hit, no one is "locked in combat" as everyone is out of b2b. This could also happen with howling banshees getting lucky rolls, and killing all units in b2b.

@GiantSlinghsot & Punchdub - You two make valid points. There is nothing stating that the unit can't make pile-in moves, but (Devil's Advocate) would they not be moving illegally then since they are not locked?

@jms40k - I'm not worried about that bit. The chariot just lands impact hits a la WHF and that's it. I think that rule is to make it clear the crew does not fight just the rider.

Disclaimer: I just want to it to be known that I believe the gaunts are allowed to pile-in as they are effectively but not officially "locked" in combat with the CCB. They are free to move away at the start of their movement phase.

I feel the need to add this ^^^ bit to cover my a**. I don't want to forge any internet "derp" threads. This was just a curiosity discovered with my friend.

Shawn G. (SoI)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

GiantSlingshot wrote:Also note that A monstrous Creature may very well do exactly the same thing. According to your argument, if he kills all of the models he is in base contact with during its Hammer hit, no one is "locked in combat" as everyone is out of b2b. This could also happen with howling banshees getting lucky rolls, and killing all units in b2b.

This example is a little different as the CCB is a vehicle and thus has weird prohibitive rules. Ordinary units don't have to worry about this silliness. They would pile-in as normal.

Shawn G.

Soul of Iron wrote:
@jms40k - I'm not worried about that bit. The chariot just lands impact hits a la WHF and that's it. I think that rule is to make it clear the crew does not fight just the rider.

Yet that's not what RAW says. I'm all for trying to decipher rules, but you don't get to be pedantic about one "strict interpretation" but not another... RAW, it appears a chariot has the hammer of wraith special rule but doesn't get to use it.

All in all, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I think too many people are trying to break the game that they are forgetting it's supposed to be fun.

jms40k wrote:

Soul of Iron wrote:
@jms40k - I'm not worried about that bit. The chariot just lands impact hits a la WHF and that's it. I think that rule is to make it clear the crew does not fight just the rider.

Yet that's not what RAW says. I'm all for trying to decipher rules, but you don't get to be pedantic about one "strict interpretation" but not another... RAW, it appears a chariot has the hammer of wraith special rule but doesn't get to use it.

All in all, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I think too many people are trying to break the game that they are forgetting it's supposed to be fun.

That is fine. I was not trying to be pedantic on anything. I understand the rules for for HoW for chariots as they are pretty clear. By RAW, the HoW impact hits are a byproduct of a model with said rule moving into base contact with an enemy model. The chariot is not actually striking blows, it's just gets free hits.

This was just a funny situation that cropped up in a friendly game with a friend.

The HG would still move for their 3" pile in even if they dont make b2b with you (they have to get as close as possible), if they dont make b2b they dont get to attack in their Initiative Step of 5, when it then gets to your Initiative Step of 2 and if you are not in b2b you would also make a 3" pile in move toward the closest HG as per normal assault rules, if you make it into b2b you get your Overlords normal attacks +1 for charging in at start of the assault phase, if you cant get in b2b despite the 3" move of the HG and your CCB (6" total) then the fight ends and theres no further attacks.

Userarm wrote:The HG would still move for their 3" pile in even if they dont make b2b with you (they have to get as close as possible), if they dont make b2b they dont get to attack in their Initiative Step of 5, when it then gets to your Initiative Step of 2 and if you are not in b2b you would also make a 3" pile in move toward the closest HG as per normal assault rules, if you make it into b2b you get your Overlords normal attacks +1 for charging in at start of the assault phase, if you cant get in b2b despite the 3" move of the HG and your CCB (6" total) then the fight ends and theres no further attacks.

It took me a really long time to come up with a situation where this could have happened. The best I could come up with is the unit is strung out near maximum unit coherency and the pile-in move takes the unit through dangerous terrain and the 'now' closest model dies due to a terrain. In normal conditions, a 3" move should bring multiple models into base contact with CCB in their initiative step.

Had another question regarding Chariots. Let's say a Necron Overlord is on a CCB and is assaulted by a unit of Marines. Can the assaulting unit direct their attacks against the Chariot itself, or only at the embarked character? If they can assault the Chariot, can they split up their attacks? If some of them have grenades, can they allocate some grenades to the vehicle while the rest attack the Overlord normally?

Normally I'd say this is a pretty cut and dry question, but the Chariot breaks a lot of the game's rules (allowing you to hit an embarked character being the big one here). I'm mostly curious as to whether the ride can be singled out in melee.

@PrinceOfMadness Yes you can attack the chariot as it is still a vehicle you are in assault with and follows the vehicle rules ie cannot be locked in combat as it has no WS, so you could split your attacks as per normal, if your attacks are all at the same Initiative the Overlord would still get the +1 to saves and be Fearless but if you destroy it at I4 then attack at I1 against the Overlord, he would not benefit from this as he only benefits from the special rules until the chariot is destroyed.

Userarm wrote:@PrinceOfMadness Yes you can attack the chariot as it is still a vehicle you are in assault with and follows the vehicle rules ie cannot be locked in combat as it has no WS, so you could split your attacks as per normal, if your attacks are all at the same Initiative the Overlord would still get the +1 to saves and be Fearless but if you destroy it at I4 then attack at I1 against the Overlord, he would not benefit from this as he only benefits from the special rules until the chariot is destroyed.

It has a WS of 0 if it didn't move (and therefore is hit automatically) and a WS of 1 if it did move.

The CCB is pretty hard to take out. You have to be able to deal with AV 11 so that means krak grenades or S5+ (melta bombs strike at I1 so you may not get a chance). You also have to glance it 5 times thanks to symbiotic repair. If you manage to pen half the results do nothing really and only explodes gets past symbiotic repair. With krak grenades you've got a 1.85% chance to explode it and only 22.2% chance to strip a single hull point. Not to mention the CCB gets to soften you up with sweep attacks, shooting, MSS, and hammer of wrath.

I don't think you are able to attack the CCB itself.

What happens when you destroy the chariot at I4? Does the overlord leave the assault and stops being in base to base with the enemies in the middle of assault phase? Does he continue to fight on the ground losing all the benefits of the CCB but still is not locked in combat? Does he suddenly become locked in combat?

The lack of rules to explain this situation means that the author didn't think that assaulting the CCB should be possible. Generally speaking the rules for the chariot are badly written, and they are going to create lots of confusion. And I hear the same complaint with the new unit types. It seems like they didn't think them through. Lets hope a faq will come soon.

Soul of Iron wrote:A Necron Overlord mounted on a Catacomb Command Barge (CCB) charges into a unit of 12 Hormagaunts. The initial assault brings the lord into base contact with 2 gaunts.

The Hammer of Wrath effect of the chariot triggers and deals 4 S6 impact hits at I10 into the gaunts killing 3. The casualties removed are the 2 in contact with the chariot, and 1 extra.

(Here’s where it gets sticky…)

The Initiative Pile-In phase is supposed to begin now, but based off of what we read; it doesn’t and the combat ends immediately.

Here’s what confused us all to be damn’d:

Pg23 – Start of Initiative Step Pile-In (last paragraph)
“If both players pile in moved combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost…”

Pg23 – Who Can Fight
“Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile-In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.”

Pg 82 – Chariots (Fighting from a Chariot)
“Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and it’s rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat”

Based on these little jewels, the Hormagaunts have been killed out of base contact and cannot Pile-In as they are not locked. The combat ends because the I4 Pile-In phase failed. To make things worse, as a chariot the CCB can’t make Pile-In moves as it is never locked.

The chariots-not-being-locked bit is odd; not sure what to make of that. Maybe they can only basically do those HoW Impact Hits, then the combat automatically ends.

I thought they are meant to fight as normal; in which case the Hormagaunts would attempt to Pile In at I4, but if they couldn't make it (due to a high number of Impact Hits killing all the models within 3"), then combat would indeed end. Janthkin and Jy2 had this happen on turn 1 in the battle report they're doing over in the Bat Reps forum.

Greetings all. I've played a few other games using the CCB it's been cool. Here's how I've been handling the Chariot combat rules:

CCB Charges
1. HoW takes effect at I10
2. Follow the initiative pile in steps.
3. When it comes down to the lords I2 phase, I make attacks to the models in BtB. If there are none, I don't pile in as vehicles (chariots) are not allowed to.

Not sure if this is the correct way, but that's how we did it.

Shawn G.

I'm going to be running a chariot obyron tonight and having looked at the rules I'm of the opinion that the best way to treat a combat involving a chariot is to look at it as 2 separate units in combat, with the opposing player assigning hits to either the barge or the lord. The rules as written are pretty bad tho as any kind of power gamer could argue...

...you can't hit my chariot as you're too busy fighting the guy on board (no where in the rules is it implicitly stated that you can strike the barge)
...You CAN hit my barge but as its part of a (2 model) unit you have to use the majority WS taking the highest in the case of a tie (as per standard CC rules pg 24, WS 6 in the case of Obyron) significantly raising the WS of the CCB. At this point you would roll for 'wounds', (No idea how you would argue this) and at that point d-bag powergamer can assign 'wounds' to whichever model he desires (as they are both in btb contact).

I'd be pretty interested to see how cleaving counterblow then adds into this...

thoughts?

Yes i also believe it to be counted as 2 seperate units but with added special rules such as the Symbiotic Repair in the CCB's case.
As such you have to be in b2b with the Chariot/CCB to be classed as in b2b with the Overlord thus you are technically in b2b with 2 different units (the vehicle which can always be assaulted if in b2b and no where is this overridden by the chariot rules and the Overlord), you can allocate as per normal rules which unit you want to hit with models engaged in the combat, since they are seperate units the majority WS wont matter as you pick which target to hit with which models.
As per your case they can choose the CCB with WS0 if stood still or WS1 if moved (should always be 1 or something is terribly wrong) or Obyrons WS6.
I believe that the Overlord would be locked in combat if the CCB is destroyed as the rules that say he isnt is for a unit assaulting a transport and not the unit inside, however for the Chariot rules i am assaulting both as they are both trea\ted as being in b2b, should the CCB survive until after Initiative Step 1 then they would not be locked in and could move freely, if it is destroyed then i was still assaulting the Overlord so why should he no longer be in combat, he is no longer embarked on the chariot and thus the rules given by the chariot should no longer apply including the cannot be locked in combat while embarked, fearless and +1 save.

At the moment due to the crappy wordings and such it is something to bring up with your opponent first to clarify how you intend to use it, let us know what happens in your game incase you figure anything else out.

Mannahnin wrote:

Soul of Iron wrote:A Necron Overlord mounted on a Catacomb Command Barge (CCB) charges into a unit of 12 Hormagaunts. The initial assault brings the lord into base contact with 2 gaunts.

The Hammer of Wrath effect of the chariot triggers and deals 4 S6 impact hits at I10 into the gaunts killing 3. The casualties removed are the 2 in contact with the chariot, and 1 extra.

(Here’s where it gets sticky…)

The Initiative Pile-In phase is supposed to begin now, but based off of what we read; it doesn’t and the combat ends immediately.

Here’s what confused us all to be damn’d:

Pg23 – Start of Initiative Step Pile-In (last paragraph)
“If both players pile in moved combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost…”

Pg23 – Who Can Fight
“Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile-In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.”

Pg 82 – Chariots (Fighting from a Chariot)
“Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and it’s rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat”

Based on these little jewels, the Hormagaunts have been killed out of base contact and cannot Pile-In as they are not locked. The combat ends because the I4 Pile-In phase failed. To make things worse, as a chariot the CCB can’t make Pile-In moves as it is never locked.

The chariots-not-being-locked bit is odd; not sure what to make of that. Maybe they can only basically do those HoW Impact Hits, then the combat automatically ends.

I thought they are meant to fight as normal; in which case the Hormagaunts would attempt to Pile In at I4, but if they couldn't make it (due to a high number of Impact Hits killing all the models within 3"), then combat would indeed end. Janthkin and Jy2 had this happen on turn 1 in the battle report they're doing over in the Bat Reps forum.

Hey people, I'm the guy that Soul played against when this first came up. I (as the Nid player), told Soul was that I felt this whole matter is "null" for the Gaunts on one term...

1). A Vehicle cannot be locked in combat. The Lord doesn't count as a a separate unit unless it's in BtB with an enemy unit. Once the Gaunts were out of contact with the CCB after the HoW hits, the Lord is no longer a "separate" unit, thus not locking in anyone.

Edit* it says on pg82 that even while riding the Chariot, neither it nor the Rider are considered locked in combat.

On pg23, under "Who can fight", it says that pile in moves can only be taken by units Locked in combat.

As I said, I was the Nid player in this game and even I had to say that this was the way the combat woul dhae resolved.
The HoW would hit, killing all that could have attacked back and leaving me in a place where when it did come time for my IntStep to kick in, I would not had made it.
Even then, the combat would have ended like normal.


Honestly, this is was really a one off situation that could lead to some nice random "ramming" of non-vehicle units given the right conditions...