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did they gimp them in the new rules or are they still the same?

They are better because there are many less ap2 cc weapons.

thats what i was thinking.

they would absolutely maul grey knights now LOL. that would be funny.

Maybe this is a dumb question because I play SW's and not vanilla marines but here goes...

Why take TH / SS instead of say PF / SS ? Both PF's and TH's have S8 at initiative 1, but the power fists are cheaper right?

Grugknuckle wrote:Maybe this is a dumb question because I play SW's and not vanilla marines but here goes...

Why take TH / SS instead of say PF / SS ? Both PF's and TH's have S8 at initiative 1, but the power fists are cheaper right?

The TH/SS are only 5 points more expensive in BA codex (same price in marines codex).. and you get a 3+ invuln save with them.

Grugknuckle wrote:Maybe this is a dumb question because I play SW's and not vanilla marines but here goes...

Why take TH / SS instead of say PF / SS ? Both PF's and TH's have S8 at initiative 1, but the power fists are cheaper right?

Because Vanilla Marines either Get TH/SS or Dual Lightning Claws for Assault Terminators.

For terminators, you can ONLY take TH/SS or Claws. The verdict is definitely TH/SS.

For HQs, you can skimp on that 5 pts and get a fist but with the challenge system and the number of units with T5, making them I1 on the next turn is rather useful.

In addition to what ever one said above you also get a x2 str modifier (If i was reading it correctly) which means you hit really hard and if the same rule stands as before when you hit a vehicle with a TH it shakes the crew or stuns i cant remember, that might have been forth cant remember to be honest

Backspacehacker wrote:if the same rule stands as before when you hit a vehicle with a TH it shakes the crew or stuns i cant remember, that might have been forth cant remember to be honest

In 5th, Thunder Hammers that dealt damage to a vehicle (walkers excluded) inflicted a Crew Shaken result. As far as I can tell, this ability has been removed in 6th.

Well there you go they took that out, BUT they still get a x2 str modifier so yeah haha

Backspacehacker wrote:Well there you go they took that out, BUT they still get a x2 str modifier so yeah haha

As do Power Fists. The reason TH/SS Terminators were favoured over SB/PF was the 3++ from the Storm Shield, which is huge. Now that there's way less AP2 in melee SB/PF might make a comeback.

Grugknuckle wrote:Why take TH / SS instead of say PF / SS ?

Holy cow some people aren't even reading properly (Horst, Walrus I'm looking at you two). This dude asked about Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield over Power Fist + Storm Shield. Gheesh!

Tac termies are a better option now in my opinion, kite and shoot anything that may win in assailt or can't shoot back, assault anything that has AP2 ranged capability as quickly as possible.

TH/SS termies have no benefit over tac termies in CC in most cases due to limited amounts of AP2 CC units plus they never have the option to shoot.

TH/SS termies were a one trick pony in 5th being a very durable unit, now their durability is almost matched by TAC termies I don't see many reasons to take them.

Tactical Terminators still rock in Black Templar lists. 2x special weapons in a 5-man squad with the Tank Hunters upgrade is pretty snazzy. With the change to tank hunters, I'm thinking of using more Assault Cannons than I used to.

Who cares if TH/SS can't shoot. 9 time out of 10 they are arriving in a LR who can do the shooting for them and assault rigt out of the vehicle. They are very good if not one of the best units in the codex. A mix of claws and TH/SS is also a cool option. In CC the 3++ save is an extreme benefit.

skycapt44 wrote:Who cares if TH/SS can't shoot. 9 time out of 10 they are arriving in a LR who can do the shooting for them and assault rigt out of the vehicle. They are very good if not one of the best units in the codex. A mix of claws and TH/SS is also a cool option. In CC the 3++ save is an extreme benefit.

I'm still bringing them in my lists... ride in a stormraven!

Here's the thing. As a SW's player, I can kit my wolf guard terminators however I want. So I was thinking Power fist + Storm Shield instead of Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield in order to save 5 points per model. I looks to me that except for "concussive" a powerfist is equivalent to a thunderhammer. Also, for the price of a thunderhammer I could have a chainfist instead.

So I was just curious why no one else ran PF + SS. The answer is that it's not an option.

Indeed it is.

On the other hand, maybe it's for the best: Chainfist/Storm Shield Terminators would NOT be pretty for 40 ppm.

Grugknuckle wrote:Here's the thing. As a SW's player, I can kit my wolf guard terminators however I want. So I was thinking Power fist + Storm Shield instead of Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield in order to save 5 points per model. I looks to me that except for "concussive" a powerfist is equivalent to a thunderhammer. Also, for the price of a thunderhammer I could have a chainfist instead.

So I was just curious why no one else ran PF + SS. The answer is that it's not an option.

SS are too expensive for Space Wolves. Your're going to go way over 40 points with a fist and a storm shield!

skycapt44 wrote:Who cares if TH/SS can't shoot. 9 time out of 10 they are arriving in a LR who can do the shooting for them and assault rigt out of the vehicle. They are very good if not one of the best units in the codex. A mix of claws and TH/SS is also a cool option. In CC the 3++ save is an extreme benefit.

It is however nice to have the option to be able to shoot, with random charge range it guarantees that you'll do some damage even if you fail a charge, being able to shoot plus being as survivable in CC vs pretty much everything makes TAC termies superior as far as I'm concerned.

Imo the only way you can max your th/ss is by giveing them a chaplain. By doing that they reck shop on anything they touch. But i will give that with the new shooting rules it could be possible that tac terms with pf and sb might be better. I have not tried it in action but also with a chaplainit could be real dirty

*take a BA ally for priests*
*put null zone libby in LR with TH/SS*
*cast null zone so your FNP terminators make opponents reroll successful saves in melee*
*win?*

Joe Mama wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:Here's the thing. As a SW's player, I can kit my wolf guard terminators however I want. So I was thinking Power fist + Storm Shield instead of Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield in order to save 5 points per model. I looks to me that except for "concussive" a powerfist is equivalent to a thunderhammer. Also, for the price of a thunderhammer I could have a chainfist instead.

So I was just curious why no one else ran PF + SS. The answer is that it's not an option.

SS are too expensive for Space Wolves. Your're going to go way over 40 points with a fist and a storm shield!

True. It's way too expensive to kit out an entire unit with storm shields, but for a lone wolf or a single model in a big unit it's not. With the new wound allocation rules, it might be worth considering giving one or two models in a unit a storm shield. That way you can provide a little extra protection from heavy weapons while still keeping your points cost down. Just put those two models in front of the unit, and collect that 3+ invulnerable from plasma fire.

Also - I don't run thunder wolf cav personally, but if I did I'd want to protect my investment by giving them all that 3+ invulnerable.

In any case, my question wasn't about the storm shield really. Nor was it about the tactical use of TH/SS termies. My question was why do people choose the thunder hammer over a power fist in their CC units. Power fists are cheaper and even though they are not concussive, they are essentially just as effective in CC against infantry as a thunder hammer. Against vehicles, I would consider a chain fist instead of a thunder hammer - or better yet - a mix of both in the same unit. Chain fists and hammers cost the same. The reason I asked was because I was ignorant of the fact that most marine armies don't have the option to choose a fist over a hammer and still keep the storm shield.

Thanks for answering my question guys.

Jihallah wrote:*take a BA ally for priests*
*put null zone libby in LR with TH/SS*
*cast null zone so your FNP terminators make opponents reroll successful saves in melee*
*win?*

*find out FnP/FC bubbles don't work on allies*
*lose*

Stoffer wrote:

Jihallah wrote:*take a BA ally for priests*
*put null zone libby in LR with TH/SS*
*cast null zone so your FNP terminators make opponents reroll successful saves in melee*
*win?*

*find out FnP/FC bubbles don't work on allies*
*lose*

FNP/FC doesn't work on allies, true.

However, if you take the null zone libby as the ally and just ride behind the terminators in another vehicle(or as a jump libby in an assault squad), then it works.

Yep, I'm just saying that if you're taking BA for a priest ally, you're doing it wrong.