Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After exceeding speculation and research I have been enlightened to the fact that my favorite pre heresy chapter the thousand sons might have survived, through a fleeing fleet. Which didn't get sucked up by tzeentch, and remained loyal. The blood ravens. In a few books there are quotes in which thousand son psykers encounter remembrancers/ daemons who talk about "knowledge is power", or that "the ravens of blood are lost and seek knowledge". This is very interesting because. I know that is their battlecry. Any speculation on if this theory is true? I really hope so because I love the concept of the loyal thousand sons

There are about a gazillion threads on this topic. Bottom line is, there's no good evidence outside of a novel written by C. S. Goto establishing solid connections between the 1k Sons and the Blood Ravens. Personally, I think it's a neat idea. As far as published stuff goes, there have been teasing hints (like what you mentioned, from the HH books) but nothing incontrovertible.

Manchu wrote:There are about a gazillion threads on this topic. Bottom line is, there's no good evidence outside of a novel written by C. S. Goto establishing solid connections between the 1k Sons and the Blood Ravens. Personally, I think it's a neat idea. As far as published stuff goes, there have been teasing hints (like what you mentioned, from the HH books) but nothing incontrovertible.

Not just C.S. Goto - A Thousand Sons and Rebirth practically scream that Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons. And its not just the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens. The Iron Within has loyalist Iron Warriors joining up with the Ultramarines - lots of Chapters out there could be descended from loyalist survivors of the Traitor Legions. Just because your gene-seed gives you predispositions to some things doesn't mean you automatically fall - the events of Istvaan III, Rebirth, and The Iron Within prove that. Traitor gene-seed might be sealed, but its never been said that its never been used. For all we know, its sealed to ensure no one outside those who need to know can discover the truth behind certain Chapters.

I think you'll find I mentioned HH books in my post. And they don't provide a solid connection. It's just hints. If you found a solid connection in the book, please post the quotation and page number.

I think its all too obvious. Its not like the black library would allow a book published about the thousand sons with continuous references to the "ravens of blood"

Brother Thomas wrote:I think its all too obvious. Its not like the black library would allow a book published about the thousand sons with continuous references to the "ravens of blood"

And I seem to remember GW saying that the HH novels are the current canon for the events of the Horus Heresy.

I'd love to see a source with GW saying anything is canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Thomas wrote:I think its all too obvious.

And I think it's obvious that the Minotaurs are successors of the World Eaters. But until someone working for GW or its licensees says it in the capacity of publishing fluff, it's just a fan theory.

What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

As Manchu said, there's lot of hints but no actual facts/evidence that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son successors. I can't imagine GW will ever clarify it either.
There can also be a lot that points to the contrary however, such as a lack of flesh change, less prevalent psykers etc.

FWIW, I think I remember reading Aaron Dembski-Bowden say the HH team won't be dropping any more hints for it, which is fair enough IMHO.

Medium of Death wrote:What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

Presumably, the Magos Biologis suppressed it when even Magnus and the Emperor himself could not. Anything is possible in fan fiction.

Manchu wrote:I'd love to see a source with GW saying anything is canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Thomas wrote:I think its all too obvious.

And I think it's obvious that the Minotaurs are successors of the World Eaters. But until someone working for GW or its licensees says it in the capacity of publishing fluff, it's just a fan theory.

Isn't GW's position something like "everything is canon, but none of it can be trusted"?

Manchu wrote:I'd love to see a source with GW saying anything is canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Thomas wrote:I think its all too obvious.

And I think it's obvious that the Minotaurs are successors of the World Eaters. But until someone working for GW or its licensees says it in the capacity of publishing fluff, it's just a fan theory.

I had never considered that. Very interesting....

daveNYC wrote:Isn't GW's position something like "everything is canon, but none of it can be trusted"?

That's Andy Hoare's position. GW has no stated position.

Medium of Death wrote:What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

They weren't on Prospero when the change happened. Presumably because it was triggered by proximity.

That and/or Tzeentch just likes screwing with people and decided to leave them alone as part of his plan.


The Blood Raven color scheme is almost identicle to the Pre-heresy Thousand Sons colors.

See for yourself.

Ahhh, Blood Angels are Thousand Sons successors! Dat asplains de red armerz!!!1!



As for the flesh-change, I thought it occurred before the Emperor found Magnus.

Manchu wrote:
As for the flesh-change, I thought it occurred before the Emperor found Magnus.

It did.
And if the Emperor couldn't prevent it from happening without help from a freaking Chaos God, nothing short of ignoring the canon of the Thousand Sons' Flesh Change is going to make the Blood Ravens direct Successors of the Thousand Sons.

Like I said, anything is possible in fan fiction.

But fan fiction isn't canon!

According to Gav Thorpe, fan fiction and Black Library are on the same footing. Just PM Lynata for his blog post on it ...

Silly Gav Thorpe ...

Medium of Death wrote:What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

Tzeentch has no further use for it. Besides, don't you see how much it would amuse him - the 'Seekers of Truth' don't even know who they are, and yet they seek knowledge so badly. The amusement the Great Sorcerer obtains while watching the Blood Ravens wandering around seeking vainly the truth of their origins would be enough for Tzeentch to withhold the flesh-change. Or perhaps its related to what Magnus did at Prospero when he used the refracting gems the Sons wore - the Fourth Fellowship wasn't there at the time, and in Rebirth they had difficulty using their powers, perhaps they were 'disconnected' from the rest of their legion?

Manchu wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

Presumably, the Magos Biologis suppressed it when even Magnus and the Emperor himself could not. Anything is possible in fan fiction.

Unless I misremember, the flesh change didn't enter continuity until A Thousand Sons in 2010; prior to this, the mutations Ahriman sought to prevent by his rubric were just the result of ~Tzeentch~. Given that Dawn of War and its attendant novels pre-date this by six years, He Who Shall Not Be Named could, for once, be absolved from responsibility for coming up with a reason.

English Assassin wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:What happened to the Flesh Change if they are using Thousand Son geneseed?

Presumably, the Magos Biologis suppressed it when even Magnus and the Emperor himself could not. Anything is possible in fan fiction.

Unless I misremember, the flesh change didn't enter continuity until A Thousand Sons in 2010; prior to this, the mutations Ahriman sought to prevent by his rubric were just the result of ~Tzeentch~. Given that Dawn of War and its attendant novels pre-date this by six years, He Who Shall Not Be Named could, for once, be absolved from responsibility for coming up with a reason.

Come to think of it, yes, that is a good point. Before the HH novels came out, the only reason Russ didn't like Magnus was because he used sorcery, not because of the flesh-change (which is ironic considering the Curse of the Wulfen afflicting the Wolves).

Havnt I already posted on this topic with the exact same name by a different person... *sigh* I dont feeling like writing about it again

Grey Templar wrote:They weren't on Prospero when the change happened. Presumably because it was triggered by proximity.

Proximity didn't matter when the Thousand Sons were on Shrike.

English Assassin wrote:
Unless I misremember, the flesh change didn't enter continuity until A Thousand Sons in 2010; prior to this, the mutations Ahriman sought to prevent by his rubric were just the result of ~Tzeentch~

Correct from what i can gather

IA: Thousand Sons

Formed from Magnus's own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutancy in disproportionate numbers; a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle.

The fifteenth Legion had suffered terribly from the spontaneous, uncontrolled manifestation of psychics amongst their ranks

So seems only to be due to Psychic mutation rather than any form of gribbliness

And the reason for the Rubric

Grotesque mutations in images favoured by Tzeentch appeared spontaneously throughout the Legion. Many embraced these manifestations as tokens of their new destiny,

Tadashi wrote:

Come to think of it, yes, that is a good point. Before the HH novels came out, the only reason Russ didn't like Magnus was because he used sorcery, not because of the flesh-change (which is ironic considering the Curse of the Wulfen afflicting the Wolves).

Not entirely true

IA: Space Wolves

His physical peculiarities were never remarked upon by the other Primarchs; after all, Sanguinius was blessed with wings and Leman Russ himself bore the sharpest of fangs. Nonetheless, the Wolf-King feared that the taint of Chaos was ingrained within the giant's soul. But the Emperor would not hear of his suspicions, as Magnus was one of his own sons.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They weren't on Prospero when the change happened. Presumably because it was triggered by proximity.

Proximity didn't matter when the Thousand Sons were on Shrike.

Which is why I now think the Fourth Fellowship was somehow 'disconnected' from the rest of the legion. Magnus used the refracting gems each Thousand Son wore to transport them from Prospero, but the Fourth Fellowship and the Armada were away. And then in Rebirth apparently the Fourth Fellowship were having difficulties using their powers. Coincidence? I think not. Something had happened to them, likely connected to Magnus final act on Prospero.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They weren't on Prospero when the change happened. Presumably because it was triggered by proximity.

Proximity didn't matter when the Thousand Sons were on Shrike.

Which is why I now think the Fourth Fellowship was somehow 'disconnected' from the rest of the legion. Magnus used the refracting gems each Thousand Son wore to transport them from Prospero, but the Fourth Fellowship and the Armada were away. And then in Rebirth apparently the Fourth Fellowship were having difficulties using their powers. Coincidence? I think not. Something had happened to them, likely connected to Magnus final act on Prospero.

More than likely Magnus only took those Sons that were on Propero saving them from the Space Wolves, Sisters of Silence and Custodians.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They weren't on Prospero when the change happened. Presumably because it was triggered by proximity.

Proximity didn't matter when the Thousand Sons were on Shrike.

Which is why I now think the Fourth Fellowship was somehow 'disconnected' from the rest of the legion. Magnus used the refracting gems each Thousand Son wore to transport them from Prospero, but the Fourth Fellowship and the Armada were away. And then in Rebirth apparently the Fourth Fellowship were having difficulties using their powers. Coincidence? I think not. Something had happened to them, likely connected to Magnus final act on Prospero.

More than likely Magnus only took those Sons that were on Propero saving them from the Space Wolves, Sisters of Silence and Custodians.

Yes, I know, but in Rebirth Kalliston and Arvida mentioned in passing that they were having difficulties in accessing their powers shortly after they left Prospero. I wager Magnus not taking them with him 'removed' something from them.

There could be any number of reason for that.

Could be something to do with why Astropathic Communications weren't getting through, could just be that Magnus was to distracted he couldn't summon enough power to pull them with him, he was moving pretty much what survived of Tiszca.

Pilau Rice wrote:There could be any number of reason for that.

Could be something to do with why Astropathic Communications weren't getting through, could just be that Magnus was to distracted he couldn't summon enough power to pull them with him, he was moving pretty much what survived of Tiszca.

It wasn't astro-telepathy that was affected, it was their powers. The adepts of the Fellowship, including Captain Kalliston and Sergeant Arvida, were having difficulty using their powers the way they used to. My guess is, when they weren't summoned to the Planet of the Sorcerers, whatever Tzeentch had done to them (including increased psychic talent and the flesh-change) disappeared, weakening their talents but freeing them from the flesh-change.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There could be any number of reason for that.

Could be something to do with why Astropathic Communications weren't getting through, could just be that Magnus was to distracted he couldn't summon enough power to pull them with him, he was moving pretty much what survived of Tiszca.

It wasn't astro-telepathy that was affected, it was their powers. The adepts of the Fellowship, including Captain Kalliston and Sergeant Arvida, were having difficulty using their powers the way they used to. My guess is, when they weren't summoned to the Planet of the Sorcerers, whatever Tzeentch had done to them (including increased psychic talent and the flesh-change) disappeared, weakening their talents but freeing them from the flesh-change.

You miss my point, throughout the course of the Heresy Astropathic Communications were affected, whether it was down to the Chaos Gods fiddling with the warp, the Alpha Legion or other things. The same thing that could have been effecting communications could have been affecting their powers, both are warp related.