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hi all, i was wondering if you guys could help me out understanding SOB allys, i dont know alot about Space marine Chapters back grounds.

i am very happy we got IG as Battle-Brothers, as we got striped of everything in the 2 White dwarf mags to work out of. and all given to GK (not bitter!)

thing thats really go me going why is not 1 SM chapter also our Battle Brother? i thought they was all in it together and SOB like the Pure followers of the emperor and can not be turned.

i also think its mad i can use DE and Necrons. WTF..... they should be red to me!

so its 2 part. A) why is SOB not good enough for SM/GK Battle brothers? B) why is Black Templars in same boat as DE / Necrons ? did they upset SOB?

Btw i will be using IG as my allys.

Thanks

Welcome to the club.

With a few exceptions, pretty much everybody seems to agree that the chart is a bit weird. It should be clear that the Space Wolves and the Black Templars should have at least swapped places, if not the BT being the one "token" Astartes Battle Brother for Sisters, given their history. And that's not even touching upon some other weird things like SM + Tau being best buddies now.

Personally, I'm going to assume that many people - at least those knowledgeable in and wishing to stay somewhat close to the fluff - will make their own little modifications to the allies charts, as far as friendly games or even local communities are concerned.

ah ok so i am not going mad, i thought i missed a big chunk of info, also made me lol on Tau and Orks can ally.

i think GW done allys to make more money but i will have a mini army to ally with my SOB. so maybe 400-500 points instead of another 2000+ army

Win win for me

i feel sorry 4 nids. if i can ally with DE, nids should have IG (its just as stupid)

Thanks dude

Indeed, some combinations seem to care for fluff ('nids) whilst others only make sense when you come up with a good excuse ("yeahhh so ... actually, this isn't actually IG but Blood Pact, that's why they're allied with CSM").

I still think the idea of "allies" has merit, but GW may just as well have gone all the way and made alliences possible between everyone, with the provision that players are responsible to come up with good explanations on how that'd work. This way, people could do their Genestealer cults or whatever. And in tournaments etc, a jury would judge the fluff and either allow or deny this combo depending on how much sense it makes.

Also: anytime! SoB players need to stick together!

Of course, the initial assumption may prove to be correct: this is a taste of what the fluff will be like by the end of 6th edition.

To someone who knows more about the fluff than I do: What do you think about a SoB / DA alliance?

It makes sense from the Sisters' point of view: they'd have no inkling of Luther's betrayal. The DA, for their part, have no incentive to let on otherwise.

i am Told the DA codex will be out next. i will be thinking about it once i seen codex.

now my Saint can not hurt the 2+ savers, (force the 5++ save) i would not mind a Elite SM ally for some games.

Personally, I'd see this combo as right in the middle between "Alliance of Convenience" and "Desperate Allies", solely because of that line in the fluff where it said they're prone to just leave when an Inquisitor or Ecclesiarchy Confessor starts poking at their background. It's no actual dislike, but definitively a lack of trust, and I regard "Alliance of Convenience" as the standard for SoB-Astartes relationships (followed by a couple Desperate Allies Chapters and very few Battle Brothers) so DA+SoB should be a bit worse off because of this.

Lastly, there might even be some few Chapters the Sisters wouldn't ally with at all, such as the Flesh Tearers, who are currently close to being excommunicated. The Argent Shroud's Canoness Carmina's last message to the Armageddon Command Council concerning them said something along the lines of "either bomb these animals from orbit or get an Inquisitor to declare them excommunicated, but my Sisters will never again fight at their side, no matter what you want us to do"

Just based on the tiny excerpt from the old DA codex, I was thinking of building a "Guardians of the Covenant" themed DA army to ally with my SoB but I'd rather it not violate too much fluff. Thoughts?

You are quite correct alot of the matrix is off unless they change the fluff (which they did not in the present rulebook)

The BT/SOB Desperate Allies thing - does tick me off as it makes no sense when you look at the past and current fluff.

I have had another go at the Matrix here - not saying its better but I hope its truer to the fluff.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461316.page

just seen ur link, i see were ur coming from. i guess if all players did not read codex/rulebooks/WD/even the books.we would not notice a thing wrong with the allys!

most people will pick their 1st army on 2 main Reasons......

A) can they afford it? as SOB Player, i have to pay £38 for unit of 10 sisters (no more than 200 points), this is OTT! ----- on other Hand, you can spend £60 on HQ and 2 troop for GK and have 1000 points! -----
B) the Fluff/Background/Story when i was 13, i use to LOVE the SW i must have spent most weekends Reading the Codex and Playing with my Brother/Friends. i use to love everything about them just thought they was cool. - people should have a rmy they WANT! -

i like SOB cos of the story behind them and the way you can use them, with only 3S/3T but with 4 BS, 3+/6++ sv. Makes them good all round, the fact i can get 40 troops out of 660 points is great.

i just wish GW would have more Respect for the hard-core Gamers that spend alot of time and money with the Armys/mags/Books/Torment’s ect.

the ally chart is here to stay for a few years so looks like we will have to just put up with it.

I see kinda why they can ally with necrons and dark eldar because they hunt psychers dont they? so it makes sense they would want to ally with 2 race that are totally non psychic.

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:I see kinda why they can ally with necrons and dark eldar because they hunt psychers dont they? so it makes sense they would want to ally with 2 race that are totally non psychic.

That's ... not really going to work. The Necrons are sworn enemies of Mankind, on top of being xenos, and the Dark Eldar are known for raiding human worlds and pilgrim vessels for slaves, regardless of whether it's a witch or a pilgrim or even a cleric.

Lastly, even the Sororitas recognize that the Imperium has to endure the necessary evil of some sanctioned psykers being allowed to continue living in service to the God-Emperor and His armies. The convents would be unable to communicate with each other without an Astropath in the vicinity. No Sororitas corvette, no Ecclesiarchal War of Faith would get anywhere without a Navigator steering the ship through the warp.

@ Overlord Zerrtin : were Battle Brothers with IG, thats got a HQ and Elite That use Psy powers. in fact i think they can use 4/5 Tables lol.

when it was Witch hunters and Demon hunters, they hated anything to do with the warp. then in last GK codex they all got force weapons and psy attacks....

IF/When SOB get a new codex. everything could change like it did with GKs.

also note Orks Dont use Psy powers, we can not ally with them at all.

A) why is SOB not good enough for SM/GK Battle brothers? B) why is Black Templars in same boat as DE / Necrons ? did they upset SOB?

Because the Sisters of Battle are antagonistic towards the Astartes, at best, and outright hostile towards them at worst.

Seriously. This has been a hallmark of the background for as long as I've been involved with 40k.
The Sororitas are (arguably) pawns of the Ecclesiarchy, and if the Ecclesiarchy decides it has beef with a particular Astartes Chapter the Sororitas have no qualms in dealing with them.

Trollslayer wrote:
thing thats really go me going why is not 1 SM chapter also our Battle Brother? i thought they was all in it together and SOB like the Pure followers of the emperor and can not be turned.

I don't think Sisters would be "battle brothers" with any space marine chapter just because space marines do NOT worship the emperor as a god. They revere him, but not the same way as the Ecclesiarchy. It's mentioned frequently in the fluff how the Ecclesiarchy views the space marines with suspicion, plus, if I recall correctly, there was a bit in the Armageddon fluff about a group of overzealous sisters trying to purge the space marines. So to me it makes perfect sense to me. Not sure why the Black Templar are regarded as less trustworthy than any other SM chapter, though.

Sisters are Battle Brothers ONLY with the Imperial Guard since the IG are "orthodox" believers in the Imperial Creed.

Same with how the GK are not battle brothers with anyone -- since by their fluff they aren't even supposed to exist (officially) and will often wipe-out even other Imperials to keep their existence secret.

As for allowing desperate alliances with Necrons and Dark Eldar, I'm okay with that, too. Desperate allies basically means if they have a choice of being wiped-out, and agreeing not to attack these enemies in favour of the more pressing threat, they will grudgingly do it. On the other hand, they'd rather all be slaughtered than even agree to such a minor truce with Chaos.

I don't see why so many people are upset over IG being able to ally with Chaos. Traitor Guard armies are a dime a dozen. Given their prevalence it would be rather douchey on the part of GW to not make allowance for the people who run such armies to bring Chaos units. The Tau/Space Marine battle brothers I can't figure out though.

Sort of. I would posit that the Sisters are "coolly neutral" towards Space Marines at best, and outright hostile at worst, depending on the Chapter in question and the current situation on site.

NWansbutter wrote:I don't think Sisters would be "battle brothers" with any space marine chapter just because space marines do NOT worship the emperor as a god.

There's quite a bit of room depending on the individual Chapter. What is strange is that the distance between Sisters and Marines is bigger than, say, between Marines and Tau. That's just weird. I would agree it'd seem less crazy if, in general, each Imperial Adeptus would get along with each other better than they get along with any outside force - barring those particular cases where we know of a history of hostility.

NWansbutter wrote:As for allowing desperate alliances with Necrons and Dark Eldar, I'm okay with that, too. Desperate allies basically means if they have a choice of being wiped-out, and agreeing not to attack these enemies in favour of the more pressing threat, they will grudgingly do it. On the other hand, they'd rather all be slaughtered than even agree to such a minor truce with Chaos.

To a Sister Sororitas, there's not much of a difference between, say, Chaos and Necrons, though, they all need to die. The rulebook even mentions how an alliance like this would get the survivors branded as traitors.

The worst thing is that this will potentially end up with Sisters allying with Dark Eldar to kill off another Imperial force. To me at least it'd just "look bad".

NWansbutter wrote:I don't see why so many people are upset over IG being able to ally with Chaos. Traitor Guard armies are a dime a dozen.

I get that logic, but by the same thought it should be possible to make IG and 'nids (Genestealer cult). It just looks somewhat random, especially since you can probably find a somewhat logical excuse for why everybody would fight with anyone if you just look hard enough and are prepared for some hefty criticism towards particularly funky ideas such as "my Farseer has hijacked their hivemind so my Eldar get to ally with 'nids".

I say it again, GW may just as well have allowed alliances across the board and leave it to the players to explain it. In tournaments and clubs, there could have been juries judging people's fluff and allowing/refusing combinations depending on how much sense their backstory makes. Would've surely triggered a lot of creativity.

Trollslayer wrote:@ Overlord Zerrtin : were Battle Brothers with IG, thats got a HQ and Elite That use Psy powers. in fact i think they can use 4/5 Tables lol.

when it was Witch hunters and Demon hunters, they hated anything to do with the warp. then in last GK codex they all got force weapons and psy attacks....

IF/When SOB get a new codex. everything could change like it did with GKs.

also note Orks Dont use Psy powers, we can not ally with them at all.

...not sure what you're on about, Grey Knights have always been psychic and used Force Weapons.

Lynata -- you make good points. The one about the genestealer cult is well taken, although I've never actually seen anyone do such an army whereas the Traitor Guard armies are VERY common. So that may be why.

And you're probably right that Sisters should not be allowed to ally at all with non-Imperial factions. Maybe, at most, desperate alliance with the more benign xenos like Eldar and Tau?

In the end I think we should try not to be too worried about the allies chart. I am just elated that I can bring SoB allies with my Imperial Guard again.

one of my m8s has GKs, when they was "demonhunters" i thought most of the rules was with demons. when he got the last Codex out he was jumping up and down saying they got lots of new stuff and all weapons work on Every army!

is this maybe him not reading the 1st codex how its writen?? i have never had and GK army/codex. CC changed alot aganist him.

i should give it a read tbh. but i should not have to read all my friends Codexs.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NWansbutter wrote:In the end I think we should try not to be too worried about the allies chart. I am just elated that I can bring SoB allies with my Imperial Guard again.

i 2nd this!!! lol i still have loads of stuff left from Witchhunters codex. shame my vind assassin still not back lol

NWansbutter wrote:The one about the genestealer cult is well taken, although I've never actually seen anyone do such an army whereas the Traitor Guard armies are VERY common.

I guess that's because a Traitor Army is fairly easy to do - get Guard, paint it red, voila. You don't even need another Codex.

Genestealer cults ... I vaguely recall rules for them, but I think the last time this was possible was around 2E? They kind of disappeared from people's perception I think.

NWansbutter wrote:Maybe, at most, desperate alliance with the more benign xenos like Eldar and Tau?

My thoughts exactly.

NWansbutter wrote:In the end I think we should try not to be too worried about the allies chart. I am just elated that I can bring SoB allies with my Imperial Guard again.

Good to hear - I like both the SoB as well as the Guard, so I can relate, and I've been thinking about much the same. It's a bit sad that we can't use IG transports to ferry Sisters, though. A flight of Valkyries in Sororitas colours would have been an awesome battle taxi.

Lynata wrote: It's a bit sad that we can't use IG transports to ferry Sisters, though. A flight of Valkyries in Sororitas colours would have been an awesome battle taxi.

I don't have my rulebook with me at work, but I thought battle brothers were able to embark on allied vehicles?

Kanluwen wrote:

A) why is SOB not good enough for SM/GK Battle brothers? B) why is Black Templars in same boat as DE / Necrons ? did they upset SOB?

Because the Sisters of Battle are antagonistic towards the Astartes, at best, and outright hostile towards them at worst.

Seriously. This has been a hallmark of the background for as long as I've been involved with 40k.
The Sororitas are (arguably) pawns of the Ecclesiarchy, and if the Ecclesiarchy decides it has beef with a particular Astartes Chapter the Sororitas have no qualms in dealing with them.

But they are not likely to attack them on sight - major difference between them and Xenos monsters that torture, ensalve and exterminate humans on whim - thats also why GW set up levels of Alliance from battle brothers thorugh to Allies of Convenience up to Desperate Allies - except they did not follow through on them.

Allies of Conveince is perfect for the SOB and the Asrtes - they don;t like each other and under the right conditions would either fight alongside them or against them

Desperate Allies you stop fighting them whilst you destroy the greater enemy - so SOB and Xenos - all easy - just GW got it wrong in the matrix.

NWansbutter wrote:

Lynata wrote: It's a bit sad that we can't use IG transports to ferry Sisters, though. A flight of Valkyries in Sororitas colours would have been an awesome battle taxi.

I don't have my rulebook with me at work, but I thought battle brothers were able to embark on allied vehicles?

no we can not Share them. as Lyata put it. it would have been very very sexy, too sexy infact.

NWansbutter wrote:I don't have my rulebook with me at work, but I thought battle brothers were able to embark on allied vehicles?

Sadly, no - the rulebook specifically points out that no allies can ever embark on an ally's transports, ever. :(

Mr Morden wrote:Allies of Conveince is perfect for the SOB and the Asrtes - they don;t like each other and under the right conditions would either fight alongside them or against them
Desperate Allies you stop fighting them whilst you destroy the greater enemy - so SOB and Xenos - all easy - just GW got it wrong in the matrix.

It would fit for SW and - if they had a Codex of their own - Flesh Tearers, too.
I also still think there's a case to be made for a few Chapters having a better relationship to the Sororitas that would allow for BB, but this assessment comes with a lot of gut feeling. I just think it's a bit sad when so many Chapters get lumped into a single category even though there are differences that would affect their standing - to both the negative as well as the positive.

For your many questions, there is but one answer: The 6th edition allies chart is not reflective of the lore at all. It was made with only model sales and game balance in mind, and fluff accuracy was only a very minor objective.